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Update on Transfers/Server Consolidations


Stickeez
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There game engine is the most crippling aspect of the game.  The engine is why someone with a top of the line pc still gets shitty fps.  My understanding is the Turbine G3 engine is pretty much a slightly updated version of the engine they started working on back in 94 for Asheron's Call.  It clearly wasn't designed to take advantage of the performance of decent hardware.  This new server hardware is like putting a Yugo engine in a Lamborghini. It looks pretty but it's still a pile of shit.

It isn't the engine, or at least wasn't before they started kludging and adding systems it was never designed to run.  Whatever they did U6 was, is, and will continue be the bottleneck on the new Super Uper Duper hware.  They want to brag about something they should address that.

Edited by Bendin
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I agree.

Surely if you are in a public relations role you should have people skills, tact and be able to think on your feet and spout out information without making unprofessional revelations or statements.

Operative words highlighted. Of course, with Turbine, what one should do and what one does do are two disjoint sets, as evidenced with Heaton's skill-set which outright excludes all of those items on your little list there.

SNy

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I don't think they "revealed" anything.  As I mentioned, there are single server setups able to handle many times LOTRO's population.  I don't think it is shocking information that they could have gone with only 2 clusters (and if not for the account ID issue, I think they would have said a SINGLE server instead of 2).

ESO uses a single server cluster for their entire population - does this fact alone mean that their population is low?

I don't think LOTRO has every had more players in its history than can be handled by current hardware in a single cluster... the fact that they're opting to split the capacity into multiple clusters DOES tell you something about the game engine. 

I'm actually surprised you guys aren't harping on THAT, rather than the population angle.

There may be single server setups able to handle many times LOTRO's current population, but I am skeptical that Turbine either owns it or can operate it effectively. What ESO or WoW or anybody else does really is immaterial - if we did everything they did we'd have seen regular expansion packs with more content including multi-player raids. What we got were patches and mini areas and crap they talked about that never works as intended.

So you're saying the game engine is crap and has to be split up? Or the population is small enough for one server? Because I'm not quite sure which party line you're spouting.

Since Turbine had said for years they wouldn't be merging servers, and to me closing servers is basically the same thing, I think this was a huge step in their admission they fucked up and a ton of people left just like we'd all been claiming and they'd been denying. Spin it any way you want, they haven't said anything to change my mind and their little "it could fit on two servers" merely enforces that in my opinion.

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So you're saying the game engine is crap and has to be split up? Or the population is small enough for one server? Because I'm not quite sure which party line you're spouting.

Your mistake is to think that I'm spouting any party's thinking other than my own.

If the engine could handle modern virtualization properly, or high player counts in small areas, they would have gone gone with FEWER clusters because that would be cheaper.  That's the actual "story" here, so much as there even is one.

Missing that to go on about population and going off on Frelorn is kind of silly IMO.

Edited by Stickeez
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Your mistake is to think that I'm spouting any party's thinking other than my own.

 

 

your spouting something right now...i'm just not sure what it is. sometimes how and when you bring something up is just as important as the fact you brought it up in the first place.

let's revisit this conversation at the end of the year when we are on the 10 servers with the new hardware.  history tells me that frelorn and his boss will be eating their words.  i genuinely hope i'm wrong, for the sake of the game.

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If the engine could handle modern virtualization properly, or high player counts in small areas, they would have gone gone with FEWER clusters because that would be cheaper. 

So why did Frelorn then talk about that the hardware could handle lotro with just two servers while it actually can't because the engine is something that belongs in a museum rather than on some new shiny server hardware?

If Frelorn said the truth then having 10 servers is just because of making the transition easier and not having too many people transfer. This is not only to please remaining players but also to keep possible problems during the transfer down.

 

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It isn't the engine, or at least wasn't before they started kludging and adding systems it was never designed to run.  Whatever they did U6 was, is, and will continue be the bottleneck on the new Super Uper Duper hware.  They want to brag about something they should address that.

I agree with this. It is the code they added to the engine that has screwed things up. The engine itself is old too, but if they had AAA programmers like WoW has, they would have recoded this and fixed it long ago. I remember Sapience even admitting they were hiring some experts to try to fix the lag problems. Then of course, we hear nothing and they never fixed it. To me: it is just an MMO with lag and terrible performance for some hardware because it is coded badly.

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If in fact the whole population could be handle on just 2 servers, why is Brandy off the transfer table? If the new server is so fabulous people should be able to transfer to Brandy. After all, if we only had 2 servers the load would be much bigger than Brandywine has right now.

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Well, because if you're gonna have 10 servers you want the populations to be as evenly spread as possible, otherwise you run into the same empty server syndrome. If one of the other servers starts to get way ahead of the others count on transfers to that server to stop too.

Honestly I'm surprised that transfer to servers weren't limited in order to fill the least populated first.

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But that sort of cancels out the ability to "choose" where you want to go. For the US we have 1 we can't transfer to (Brandywine), 1 RP server that I don't see people who don't RP transferring to, so basically you choose between 3 servers. The EU isn't any better because they have language limitations to guide where they go. Narrowing it from 29 servers to 10 automatically makes all worlds more populous. But if there are people who seriously want to transfer to Brandywine I think they should be able to - especially since Turbine has made it clear that their new servers should handle any and all comers.

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Oh I understand where you're coming from, I'm just giving a possible reason why Brandy is off the table. Reverse is true also if the other servers fill reasonably equally I suspect they'll open Brandy for transfers.

I'd decide where to go if Brandy didn't open and wait till the last minute before transfers close just in case, if I was in a similar position. 

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That's the odd thing about that statement.  With the closure, consolidation, merger; those that prefer unpopulated servers anyway are SOL.  So why not bite the bullet and consolidate to 2 US 1 reg 1 RP?  I can see why having multiples for the EU + Brits due to language. But for the US it makes no sense if your consolidating anyway and your so impressed with your HWare your bragging 1 can hold 1/2 the total LOTRO pop.  Beyond those that like low pop servers there really isn't a reason beyond rulesets/language/regional latency to have multiples if your tech can support larger pops spanning 4 time zones.

 

Normally you have multiples due to max capability of the Hware, if that's no longer the issue why still have multiples?

Edited by Bendin
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Yea, that's the real question. The game is to old to to expect any significant population increase so they're basically running servers at 1/10 capacity. I would understand at 1/2 capacity, just for a potential spike in F2P people for a given situation, but 1/10 just seems odd.

Is it hard to reconfigure a server for a different game after it's been used for a first game? For example would it be a huge task to re-purpose the servers for a LotRO 2 or even a completely different game? Is it possible to run something else on the same servers at the same time? I don't know enough about the tech but I'm sure someone here has some insight on what could or couldn't be done.

Also what the hell are they gonna do about the new hardware for IC, lol

Edited by Spiteful
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Yea, that's the real question. The game is to old to to expect any significant population increase so they're basically running servers at 1/10 capacity. I would understand at 1/2 capacity, just for a potential spike in F2P people for a given situation, but 1/10 just seems odd.

Is it hard to reconfigure a server for a different game after it's been used for a first game? For example would it be a huge task to purpose the servers for a LotRO 2 or even a completely different game? Is it possible to run something else on the same servers at the same time? I don't know enough about the tech but I'm sure someone here has some insight on what could or couldn't be done.

1 The odds on a LTORO 2 ever existing  are about the same as the next ICE age starting in 2 hrs  WB's experience with the IP on the games side has been less than impressive.  It was sinking when they appropriated it and never improved in profitability.  They won't see a compelling reason to do another MMO with this IP.

2 Most of this Hware windfall is likely from IC, so already repurposed. EDIT to add and likely to be repurposed again if/when LOTRO shuts down

3 running 2 different mmo's on the same hware you mean?  Good God no

 

 

Edited by Bendin
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Well, because if you're gonna have 10 servers you want the populations to be as evenly spread as possible, otherwise you run into the same empty server syndrome. If one of the other servers starts to get way ahead of the others count on transfers to that server to stop too.

Honestly I'm surprised that transfer to servers weren't limited in order to fill the least populated first.

What exactly is the danger of empty server syndrome? What is the downside if some of the 10 servers are less full? I can't see how that is a problem.

I can see them wanting to spread the population across servers if they are worried about some servers having problems because of too many players. That seems like the main concern here - that they will not be able to handle more players on a single server - for some reason.

But technical problems aside, I think having some less populated servers is exactly what some players want.

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What exactly is the danger of empty server syndrome? What is the downside if some of the 10 servers are less full? I can't see how that is a problem.

I can see them wanting to spread the population across servers if they are worried about some servers having problems because of too many players. That seems like the main concern here - that they will not be able to handle more players on a single server - for some reason.

But technical problems aside, I think having some less populated servers is exactly what some players want.

Turbine's downside to less full servers is they believe people DON'T want that. That's why they claim they're closing, so people feel they're on vibrant full servers.

I bring all this up because they have recently bragged how wonderful their servers are and how they can handle the entire lotro population on basically one server each for US and EU. I think they're blowing smoke out their ass, but if it's true they should open Brandywine up to transfer immediately and not wait to "see how the load goes". Otherwise they're tacitly admitting they're full of shit. Again.

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What exactly is the danger of empty server syndrome? What is the downside if some of the 10 servers are less full? I can't see how that is a problem.

I can see them wanting to spread the population across servers if they are worried about some servers having problems because of too many players. That seems like the main concern here - that they will not be able to handle more players on a single server - for some reason.

But technical problems aside, I think having some less populated servers is exactly what some players want.

Not saying there is a downside.  However Turbine obviously believes there is otherwise no need for consolidation/closure.

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Not saying there is a downside.  However Turbine obviously believes there is otherwise no need for consolidation/closure.

I agree there are problems with having 29 servers and most of them empty. One problem is the cost to run them all.

But Spiteful was saying there would be a problem of "empty server syndrome" on the 10 servers left. I can't see any problem is some of the remaining 10 are bigger than others.

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I agree there are problems with having 29 servers and most of them empty. One problem is the cost to run them all.

But Spiteful was saying there would be a problem of "empty server syndrome" on the 10 servers left. I can't see any problem is some of the remaining 10 are bigger than others.

It's a mere extension of what's going on.  If one feels the need to consolidate 29 into 10 due to pop loss/emptiness, and assuming the pop trends for LOTRO continue....applying the same logic/criteria = sooner or later 10 will be too many. If hware isn't the limiter on pop sizes then why create more work and/or drama for yourself down the road?

 

Do it once and be done with it, don't create a soap opera out of it.  People who like low pop server will already be unhappy with the current consolidation, you wont make it worse.   This is of course assuming they aren't talking out their *** about haware abilities.

Edited by Bendin
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If indeed it is true that their new hardware could handle the whole population on 2 servers (for the sake of the argument lets assume this is true), there must be another reason to keep 10 servers. 

The most obvious is the language and RP separation, but I think it's even simpler than that.

Player loss. The more servers they shut down, the more players they are gonna lose. By keeping 5 servers each side they are virtually guaranteed to keep, what, 65-75% of the population. If going 1 EU, 1US, that number would drop to 20-25%. I think they don't wanna take that risk. 

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If indeed it is true that their new hardware could handle the whole population on 2 servers (for the sake of the argument lets assume this is true), there must be another reason to keep 10 servers. 

The most obvious is the language and RP separation, but I think it's even simpler than that.

Player loss. The more servers they shut down, the more players they are gonna lose. By keeping 5 servers each side they are virtually guaranteed to keep, what, 65-75% of the population. If going 1 EU, 1US, that number would drop to 20-25%. I think they don't wanna take that risk. 

hmm along the margins perhaps, but I seriously doubt the vast majority of people who have left or are considering leaving is/was server related.  People play games for game play.  They do/do not like the game play you can have 1 or 100 servers and it will make little difference.

EDIT if that high a % of the reaming pop wouldn't want to be on a single server or split into 2 they are going to be just as pissed off loosing their low pop server and rubbing elbows under the current consolidation.  1 or 5 makes little difference other than degree.

Edited by Bendin
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1 The odds on a LTORO 2 ever existing  are about the same as the next ICE age starting in 2 hrs  WB's experience with the IP on the games side has been less than impressive.  It was sinking when they appropriated it and never improved in profitability.  They won't see a compelling reason to do another MMO with this IP.

2 Most of this Hware windfall is likely from IC, so already repurposed. EDIT to add and likely to be repurposed again if/when LOTRO shuts down

3 running 2 different mmo's on the same hware you mean?  Good God no

 

 

I wasn't saying there was a LotRO 2 or speculating on it's likelihood, since I don't know about what can or can't be done with a server like that I used what I thought would be an easier conversion.

 

Jesus Christ I didn't say anything about some fucking syndrome. I was talking about Turbine's reasoning and keeping a balanced population. But on the subject of imagined syndrome it's not like there aren't plenty of complaints about empty servers.

Even on ignore your fucking idiocy seeps through. 

Aw fuck, I actually did use the word syndrome, 4am poor choice of words. 

Edited by Spiteful
next morning re-read and removal of foot from mouth
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I wasn't saying there was a LotRO 2 or speculating on it's likelihood, since I don't know about what can or can't be done with a server like that I used what I thought would be an easier conversion.

 

Jesus Christ I didn't say anything about some fucking syndrome. I was talking about Turbine's reasoning and keeping a balanced population. But on the subject of imagined syndrome it's not like there aren't plenty of complaints about empty servers.

Even on ignore your fucking idiocy seeps through. 

Simply put repurposing a server isn't that much different than putting a different OS on your PC. Yes, there is a huge difference in scale, technicality, man-hours but hardware is rarely limited to a single use.  Even specialty configured Hware setups can be relatively easily (for values of easily) re-purposed to another use unlike software.

Edited by Bendin
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Jesus Christ I didn't say anything about some fucking syndrome.

Just relax. 

You literally said exactly that. This is a direct quote from you: http://lotrocommunity.com/forum/topic/3628-update-on-transfersserver-consolidations/?do=findComment&comment=119302

"if you're gonna have 10 servers you want the populations to be as evenly spread as possible, otherwise you run into the same empty server syndrome."

All I did was quote you,

and comment that I thought it would not matter if some of the remaining 10 servers have less players.

Edited by nosam9
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I just thought it would not matter if some of the 10 were more full or empty.

It doesn't mater if it also doesn't matter If the number is 29.  If it maters with 29 it will matter with 10.  If not now then later.  It is the same logic and criteria only different in scale.

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