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Update on Transfers/Server Consolidations


Stickeez
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But didn't Turbine itself say that the naming rules will be "loosened" for some time? What is this act if not an official admittance that something in the system is apparently broken? Justifying the act only with "a lot of new people are coming in" is not an excuse, if you think about it. It either works and is good in every condition, or it's not and needs fixing.

Exactly.

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So whether the thread carries on or it stops it's a win/win for Laurelin.

you could not be more wrong.  the kin alliance i belong to on snowy was going back and forth about where to go.  after reading that thread, we decided to remove Laurelin as an option.  that should tell you something.  but considering how loco you've been acting in that thread, it won't surprise me if it doesn't.  keep drinking the kool-aid, amigo.

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To be honest, Almagnus, I'd abandon that thread now. They're doing nothing more now than trolling from an imagined position of moral superiority, but they've shown enough of themselves that people know not to bother with Laurelin any more. The original point has just devolved into them painting you as some agenda-based malcontent, so there's nothing more you can do now beyond make a final post thanking them for clearing up how Laurelin is and moving on. They'll probably just wank themselves silly over you not responding, but fuck it a victory is a victory even if the enemy is flailing on the floor.

Agreed.

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you could not be more wrong.  the kin alliance i belong to on snowy was going back and forth about where to go.  after reading that thread, we decided to remove Laurelin as an option.  that should tell you something.  but considering how loco you've been acting in that thread, it won't surprise me if it doesn't.  keep drinking the kool-aid, amigo.

Yeah I did get a bit angry but what's done is done. Pity you're not even going to give it a try - at the very least you should not see those forum posts over the weekend as typical of the community. Still, if you want to make that judgement then that's up to you.

But didn't Turbine itself say that the naming rules will be "loosened" for some time? What is this act if not an official admittance that something in the system is apparently broken? Justifying the act only with "a lot of new people are coming in" is not an excuse, if you think about it. It either works and is good in every condition, or it's not and needs fixing.

That's what some of us have been arguing for - the implementation of the rules by the GMs to be loosened and to see how things develop - not to just scrap them in a fit of pique. If you and others actually read through the thread, you'll see there's a lot of agreement that something needs to be done, just not chucking the baby out with the bathwater.

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Yeah I did get a bit angry but what's done is done. Pity you're not even going to give it a try - at the very least you should not see those forum posts over the weekend as typical of the community. Still, if you want to make that judgement then that's up to you.

 

Bango, there's a lot of "these forum posts are not typical of the community" "these name trolls are not typical of the community" "what you see in /world is not typical of the community" being tossed around.  That's a lot of jedi hand-waving to try to explain away the things people have concerns about.  

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That's what some of us have been arguing for - the implementation of the rules by the GMs to be loosened and to see how things develop - not to just scrap them in a fit of pique. If you and others actually read through the thread, you'll see there's a lot of agreement that something needs to be done, just not chucking the baby out with the bathwater.

That's what is being suggested with the idea that Laurelin becomes a role-play encouraged server, not as it is now. It's to allow people who do want to RP the chance to do so, and those who don't the chance to opt out without being hit by server-wide restrictive rules. Considering how many non-RPers are looking for a new server, it would only make sense to open up a bit more. Loosening how GMs use the rules makes no sense; you either want the rules enforced or there's no point having them in the first place. Having an arbitrary, subjective standard just makes matters even more complicated.

But all it really boils down to is this.

 

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Bango, there's a lot of "these forum posts are not typical of the community" "these name trolls are not typical of the community" "what you see in /world is not typical of the community" being tossed around.  That's a lot of jedi hand-waving to try to explain away the things people have concerns about.  

No one is trying to wave away the issue at hand - you have to remember that all of us on Laurelin are at risk of the name trolls - not just those who are moving there from a closing server.

Let me try and summarise the key points as I (and others) see it:

- Absolutely agree that there is an issue with people taking advantage of the GMs being too quick to accept any name tickets and these people are so obviously trolling the community it's a surprise the GMs have not spotted it and dealt with it sooner.

- There is a solution whereby GMs have greater discretion and tolerance towards those with names which, let's be honest, are no different than a large number of characters already on the server. This will help deal with the valid concerns that the rules are applied inconsistently. Having a moratorium on all name changes will help as it will allow Turbine to look at how their GMs work and their current workloads. I'm hoping this moratorium will continue beyond the end of Dec and be in place as long as it takes to sort the issue.

- In scrapping the rules there is no turning back, no ability to fine tune or adjust the approach taken. That could fundamentally change the nature of the server and have who knows what unintended consequences.

- Whilst we are sympathetic to the problems being caused, what myself and others have taken exception to is when posts are made that imply the issue is caused by the wider Laurelin community, that all Laurelin RP'ers are insular & intolerant lore nazis. It's just sensational hyperbole and it's been dispelled by those who have moved to the server and who have experienced the community first hand.

I'm taking the time to post this because I feel it's important the the viewpoint I support is properly represented. Almagnus1 has his own issues and agenda and, in any other times or occasion I would not bother with him and his false dichotomy. But with the situation with Turbine and the opportunity for them to make a call that is just bad for the game and the community on Laurelin (and we know their track history on making the right calls...) then it's important that a stand is made. 

Of course if you want to continue making the joke that I've raging mad on the matter then that's up to you, but hopefully people here will look at the issues of the discussion. I'll leave it at that.

That's what is being suggested with the idea that Laurelin becomes a role-play encouraged server, not as it is now. It's to allow people who do want to RP the chance to do so, and those who don't the chance to opt out without being hit by server-wide restrictive rules. Considering how many non-RPers are looking for a new server, it would only make sense to open up a bit more. Loosening how GMs use the rules makes no sense; you either want the rules enforced or there's no point having them in the first place. Having an arbitrary, subjective standard just makes matters even more complicated.

But all it really boils down to is this.

 

 

Doro, The majority on Laurelin don't RP and even then most of those who do fall into the "light RP" category. That's a fact and has been for years. If the trolls are dealt with and the implementation of the rules relaxed then the overall problem should be resolved.

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Doro, The majority on Laurelin don't RP and even then most of those who do fall into the "light RP" category. That's a fact and has been for years. If the trolls are dealt with and the implementation of the rules relaxed then the overall problem should be resolved.

Then what is the issue with changing it from RP to RE? The only difference is the naming and chat rules.

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Then what is the issue with changing it from RP to RE? The only difference is the naming and chat rules.

In short:

1. It cannot be undone if it's found to have unintended consequences for the community - which no doubt it will.

2. It will anger and alienate those on Laurelin who enjoy the community, the ruleset being a contributor to that. Remember Laurelin is the 2nd biggest EN EU server and we've had that rule set in place for 8 years. That's 8+ years of a mixed RP and non-RP (and that included a healthy end-game and pvp groups) that will be impacted.

3. RP'ers will lose the protection they have come to enjoy from the trolls and haters which are rampant on Landroval.

So if there's a way of achieving the outcome of dealing with the name change trolls, that will allow new people to move to Laurelin who want to be part of the community but without the fear of being jumped on because their name has some obscure link to something in the corporate world and without having to jump over the precipice of dumping the rules altogether then that's far more compelling an option.

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In short:

1. It cannot be undone if it's found to have unintended consequences for the community - which no doubt it will.

2. It will anger and alienate those on Laurelin who enjoy the community, the ruleset being a contributor to that. Remember Laurelin is the 2nd biggest EN EU server and we've had that rule set in place for 8 years. That's 8+ years of a mixed RP and non-RP (and that included a healthy end-game and pvp groups) that will be impacted.

3. RP'ers will lose the protection they have come to enjoy from the trolls and haters which are rampant on Landroval.

So if there's a way of achieving the outcome of dealing with the name change trolls, that will allow new people to move to Laurelin who want to be part of the community but without the fear of being jumped on because their name has some obscure link to something in the corporate world and without having to jump over the precipice of dumping the rules altogether then that's far more compelling an option.

1. Why can't it? You've invented a problem in your very first point.

2. Anger them why? Because it's different? Because they don't get the same chance to abuse the report function as they once did? There would be no difference for them.

3. Nope, that protection still exists in other rules. You aren't allowed to harass other players. The only 'protection' they'd lose is the protection of a report function.

Yeah, that option is changing it from RP to RE. The only rules lost would be the overly strict name rules (which are currently being abused and driving people away) and the chat rules (which only apply to channels that most people don't even use).

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1. Why can't it? You've invented a problem in your very first point.

2. Anger them why? Because it's different? Because they don't get the same chance to abuse the report function as they once did? There would be no difference for them.

3. Nope, that protection still exists in other rules. You aren't allowed to harass other players. The only 'protection' they'd lose is the protection of a report function.

Yeah, that option is changing it from RP to RE. The only rules lost would be the overly strict name rules (which are currently being abused and driving people away) and the chat rules (which only apply to channels that most people don't even use).

1. Why not - because if the ruleset is changed, a large number of people move to Laurelin whose names would not comply even with a more tolerant approach by the GMs then trying to deal with that mess would create even more noise on the forums than it is now. 

2. When any community is impacted by a change that they are not happy with then of course they would be angered. Were you not angry when Turbine shifted away from the old approach to raids & group content in favour of dumbed-down solo rubbish? Their ability to report would be severely curtailed because they would no longer have the protection of the ruleset to deal with the obvious & blatant names.

3. Perhaps you had better take a closer look to what happens on Landroval.

So again it's back to the false dichotomy. Laurelin has had that ruleset in place for 8+ years that has enabled a mixed RP and non-RP community and that community is in part a product of that ruleset. So no, I don't see the scrapping of the name rules as the only option.

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1. Why not - because if the ruleset is changed, a large number of people move to Laurelin whose names would not comply even with a more tolerant approach by the GMs then trying to deal with that mess would create even more noise on the forums than it is now. 

2. When any community is impacted by a change that they are not happy with then of course they would be angered. Were you not angry when Turbine shifted away from the old approach to raids & group content in favour of dumbed-down solo rubbish? Their ability to report would be severely curtailed because they would no longer have the protection of the ruleset to deal with the obvious & blatant names.

3. Perhaps you had better take a closer look to what happens on Landroval.

So again it's back to the false dichotomy. Laurelin has had that ruleset in place for 8+ years that has enabled a mixed RP and non-RP community and that community is in part a product of that ruleset. So no, I don't see the scrapping of the name rules as the only option.

1. Not an issue. If they say the RP naming rules are gone but the normal ones are still there, there is no issue.

2. You've yet to mention why they would not be happy. Not liking change doesn't count. If it's just their ability to abuse the report function, then who cares? They're the ones we're trying to stop from doing it in the first place. Plus, the non-RP naming rules would still exist, so you're creating yet another problem where there isn't one by saying they'd have no protection.

3. People can't abuse the report function. Good.

It's not a false dichotomy in the slightest (in fact, tell me what two options I'm making you pick between here, because it seems you're just throwing phrases out without knowing what they mean). It's the most viable option, that's all. Your option of 'let GMs decide on a subjective basis so that the rule is still there but not enforced' makes no sense for obvious reasons. Your protestations against the RP to RE change have all been shown to be non-issues. Laurelin may have been fine up until now, but clearly nothing like this has happened before so it needs to adapt to the times.

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1. Why not - because if the ruleset is changed, a large number of people move to Laurelin whose names would not comply even with a more tolerant approach by the GMs then trying to deal with that mess would create even more noise on the forums than it is now. 

2. When any community is impacted by a change that they are not happy with then of course they would be angered. Were you not angry when Turbine shifted away from the old approach to raids & group content in favour of dumbed-down solo rubbish? Their ability to report would be severely curtailed because they would no longer have the protection of the ruleset to deal with the obvious & blatant names.

3. Perhaps you had better take a closer look to what happens on Landroval.

So again it's back to the false dichotomy. Laurelin has had that ruleset in place for 8+ years that has enabled a mixed RP and non-RP community and that community is in part a product of that ruleset. So no, I don't see the scrapping of the name rules as the only option.

1.  complete conjecture.  provide proof or you're in the same boat as almagnus and bucko who are claiming nothing would happen at all.

2.  it's not like turbine is doing something dramatic like taking away raids (too soon?), they would be removing a feature that only the lore trolls and dick heads are currently using anyway--the report function.  and what is this protection nonsense?  have your people been officially labeled a minority or something?    :)

 

 

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1. Not an issue. If they say the RP naming rules are gone but the normal ones are still there, there is no issue.

2. You've yet to mention why they would not be happy. Not liking change doesn't count. If it's just their ability to abuse the report function, then who cares? They're the ones we're trying to stop from doing it in the first place. Plus, the non-RP naming rules would still exist, so you're creating yet another problem where there isn't one by saying they'd have no protection.

3. People can't abuse the report function. Good.

It's not a false dichotomy in the slightest (in fact, tell me what two options I'm making you pick between here, because it seems you're just throwing phrases out without knowing what they mean). It's the most viable option, that's all. Your option of 'let GMs decide on a subjective basis so that the rule is still there but not enforced' makes no sense for obvious reasons. Your protestations against the RP to RE change have all been shown to be non-issues. Laurelin may have been fine up until now, but clearly nothing like this has happened before so it needs to adapt to the times.

If you were arguing against the introduction of a ruleset then I would agree with your points - but what you don't take account of is that the community has developed - the 2nd largest EU EN server - partly because of the contribution of the ruleset in creating the immersive environment. So for me it is an issue. As to why they would be unhappy - they would feel that they had lost what it was which made their (and my) server unique - and it would lead to a degrading of the immersive environment - which I know some scoff at but which is an important issue - even for those who don't RP.

False dichotomy - The OP's argument on that OF thread has been presented as a scrap the rules as the only option otherwise the problems will remain. There's no consideration of alternatives, which there are a few that are worthy of in-depth exploration.

However, and I say this with the greatest of respect, if you were an active lotro player on Laurelin then I'd be very interested in continuing this discussion with you - as you would have a close interest in the outcome. But as you don't even play the game, let alone RP on Laurein then it's rather difficult. Perhaps you should roll on Laurelin and have this conversation to gauge their response and determine yourself the implications of scrapping the rules.

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However, and I say this with the greatest of respect, if you were an active lotro player on Laurelin then I'd be very interested in continuing this discussion with you - as you would have a close interest in the outcome. 

there's the rub, amigo.  you are too close to it, you're not looking at it objectively.  you're outright refusing to address Doro's main point.

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1.  complete conjecture.  provide proof or you're in the same boat as almagnus and bucko who are claiming nothing would happen at all.

2.  it's not like turbine is doing something dramatic like taking away raids (too soon?), they would be removing a feature that only the lore trolls and dick heads are currently using anyway--the report function.  and what is this protection nonsense?  have your people been officially labeled a minority or something?    :)

 

 

1. Not really - scrapping the rule in the context of only having two EN EU servers remaining will result in many who would never have moved to Laurelin choosing to do so. 

2. But the GMs changing how they administer the rules would also limit the ability of name trolls to affect others. The overall outcome for those with borderline names is the same, but those who have idiotic names have them changed.

As for the protection issue - that comment of yours is rather silly. If you can't see how RP'ers get targeted for abuse & harassment on Landroval then perhaps you should open your eyes and educate yourself. 

there's the rub, amigo.  you are too close to it, you're not looking at it objectively.  you're outright refusing to address Doro's main point.

Of course I am close to it - I have a personal interest in keeping the lotro RP gaming experience that I enjoy as it was and not changed at a whim by someone in Turbine who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. So on your basis of argument, anyone who considers themselves a raider should not discuss Turbine's policy to raiding. 

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If you were arguing against the introduction of a ruleset then I would agree with your points - but what you don't take account of is that the community has developed - the 2nd largest EU EN server - partly because of the contribution of the ruleset in creating the immersive environment. So for me it is an issue. As to why they would be unhappy - they would feel that they had lost what it was which made their (and my) server unique - and it would lead to a degrading of the immersive environment - which I know some scoff at but which is an important issue - even for those who don't RP.

False dichotomy - The OP's argument on that OF thread has been presented as a scrap the rules as the only option otherwise the problems will remain. There's no consideration of alternatives, which there are a few that are worthy of in-depth exploration.

However, and I say this with the greatest of respect, if you were an active lotro player on Laurelin then I'd be very interested in continuing this discussion with you - as you would have a close interest in the outcome. But as you don't even play the game, let alone RP on Laurein then it's rather difficult. Perhaps you should roll on Laurelin and have this conversation to gauge their response and determine yourself the implications of scrapping the rules.

Right, a claim you have no way of backing up. You have no way of knowing what (if any) impact the stricter naming rules and chat rules (on about 6 channels only) have had on the development of the community. I might as well be claiming that the same rules have stifled the community and that it would have been the largest server without it. So how about we leave the unprovable claims at the door?

Your server is not unique, as there are other servers with RP tags. In fact, Landroval is the unique one as it is the only one with RE on it.

The non-RP naming rules would still be in place, so degradation of immersion is a non-issue (again, something you have no way of knowing if it will happen).

I'm not the OP of the other forum, so that's not even relevant. I'm merely pointing out why the RP to RE solution would work and isn't an issue if people actually looked at it.

I don't have to be playing to be able to point out flaws in your arguments. But go ahead and use it as a scapegoat to avoid acknowledging the points I've made.

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Can we make the term 'RP Justice Warrior" a thing?  Because the more certain people on the OF carry on, the more they seem to be begging for it.

and what would the OF label people such as yourself who post on this forum? Bet you would have something to say against that....

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As for the protection issue - that comment of yours is rather silly. If you can't see how RP'ers get targeted for abuse & harassment on Landroval then perhaps you should open your eyes and educate yourself. 

 

it was meant to be silly, because it was a joke (hence the stupid smiley face). but fyi, coming across like a pompous ass doesn't do you any favors.

doro is doing a better job at getting my point across than i am (who would have thought), so i'll leave him to it.

 

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We've been labelled plenty already.  I don't really care.  

You'll find the feeling's mutual.

it was meant to be silly, because it was a joke (hence the stupid smiley face). but fyi, coming across like a pompous ass doesn't do you any favors.

doro is doing a better job at getting my point across than i am (who would have thought), so i'll leave him to it.

 

Fair enough - it wasn't meant to be pompous reply but I won't argue that.

Right, a claim you have no way of backing up. You have no way of knowing what (if any) impact the stricter naming rules and chat rules (on about 6 channels only) have had on the development of the community. I might as well be claiming that the same rules have stifled the community and that it would have been the largest server without it. So how about we leave the unprovable claims at the door?

Your server is not unique, as there are other servers with RP tags. In fact, Landroval is the unique one as it is the only one with RE on it.

The non-RP naming rules would still be in place, so degradation of immersion is a non-issue (again, something you have no way of knowing if it will happen).

I'm not the OP of the other forum, so that's not even relevant. I'm merely pointing out why the RP to RE solution would work and isn't an issue if people actually looked at it.

I don't have to be playing to be able to point out flaws in your arguments. But go ahead and use it as a scapegoat to avoid acknowledging the points I've made.

I don't have evidence other than when I talk to individuals on Laurelin about the issue. However I suspect that Turbine had that as an issue they wanted to avoid when they decided to keep Laurelin as RP when the consolidation moves were announced. So on balance it would seem that scrapping the rules would have a detrimental impact overall. As for the non-RP naming rules - sure the xxXXiPawnzUXXxx would not exist but that's about it.

And on that note I'm done here. toodle pip!

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I don't have evidence other than when I talk to individuals on Laurelin about the issue. However I suspect that Turbine had that as an issue they wanted to avoid when they decided to keep Laurelin as RP when the consolidation moves were announced. So on balance it would seem that scrapping the rules would have a detrimental impact overall. As for the non-RP naming rules - sure the xxXXiPawnzUXXxx would not exist but that's about it.

And on that note I'm done here. toodle pip!

Anecdotal evidence doesn't normally carry much weight. But if the rules really weren't a problem, Turbine wouldn't have needed to temporarily relax them recently. Have a look at the non-naming rules, if you like. They're still fairly draconian.

If you need back-up, feel free to bring that Amorey over. I've got a bone to pick with that smug smiley-spammer.

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Anecdotal evidence doesn't normally carry much weight. But if the rules really weren't a problem, Turbine wouldn't have needed to temporarily relax them recently. Have a look at the non-naming rules, if you like. They're still fairly draconian.

If you need back-up, feel free to bring that Amorey over. I've got a bone to pick with that smug smiley-spammer.

*evil grin* - Though I notice the smiley spam has lessened lately.  Now it's all "red herring" "time to move on" "where are the moderators" when people aren't on Team A.

I fully expect A. to do a Red Queen "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!" meltdown sooner or later.

 

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It's sort of odd that this has become an issue.  Technically, from the admissions of several from Laurelin, it's a minority of players who actually RP, so why are they being given the lion's share of consideration.  PvMP's have had to weather not being given a large amount of consideration for years and have more-or-less adapted to that.  Why can't the RP'ers on Laurelin?  Are they trying to suggest that their minority is, in some way, a majority?

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