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Next WoW expansion TBA August 6...


Belechannas
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For many years now, you cannot play on a twink against regular players. Blizzard put anyone with frozen XP in a separate XP-off queue for Battlegrounds, so it is impossible to stay at a level as a twink and fight against leveling characters.

Dumbing-down!

Cookie-cutter!

/ragequit

/deleteaccount

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It was very difficult to plan out a twink back in Vanilla and BC. Not going over on XP trying to get the drops could be a real heart breaker.

Yea Doro, plural. I had 3 Druids all raid ready, Moonkin, Bear and Tree. I also had a Mage, Warlock, and Hunter but not capped. Mostly I hated carrying all the different gear, plus I could have my UI and mods set up for the different roles much easier. Not to mention I really enjoyed leveling a Druid.

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It was very difficult to plan out a twink back in Vanilla and BC. Not going over on XP trying to get the drops could be a real heart breaker.

Yea Doro, plural. I had 3 Druids all raid ready, Moonkin, Bear and Tree. I also had a Mage, Warlock, and Hunter but not capped. Mostly I hated carrying all the different gear, plus I could have my UI and mods set up for the different roles much easier. Not to mention I really enjoyed leveling a Druid.

I never realised how bad the system was that it was an easier option to make a brand new character than to have multi-builds on one. Surely they've fixed that by now?

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I never realised how bad the system was that it was an easier option to make a brand new character than to have multi-builds on one. Surely they've fixed that by now?

I don't know if I'd call bad, I think I was out of the mainstream having multiple Druids, at least by the reactions when people found out. Also even if I would have only had 1 Druid I would have had 2 other toons up to raiding, for crafting and to get around lock outs. But yea for me, having 3-4 sets of gear and running different UI set-ups for each role wasn't enjoyable or at least less enjoyable than playing another Druid to cap.

I do know that later on the Mod authors began adding the ability to save profiles that you could swap around on the same character which would have been really nice early on. 

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Today all of the better UI mods have the option to store completely different settings for the two allowed specs, and these update auto-magically when you switch.

Druids are a bit unusual as they used to have one spec that was really two (cat dps and bear tank) and required different sets of gear even for a single spec.  So with a third set of gear for the real second spec (tree or chicken), and maybe yet more sets of PvP gear, the bags could get pretty full.

The cat/bear spec was eventually split into two proper specs, so Druids are the only class with 4 specs.  Also, in Warlords the need for completely different sets of gear was somewhat reduced - about half the slots (the armor) change stats and set bonuses to conform to your spec, while the other half (weapon/off-hand, jewelry, cloak) are still spec-specific.

Since I've been playing, WoW has also had a very nice built-in equipment manager that makes remembering and instantly equipping different sets of gear effortless.  Something I definitely miss in LotRO.

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Dumbing-down!

Cookie-cutter!

/ragequit

/deleteaccount

Still want to argue?  

If you could please get the facts correct, instead of blind flaming me, if you want to keep this up.  First off I said the changing of the trees was one of the reasons I left.  Not the SOLE reason.  And yes I felt the specs of Pandaria and cataclysm were very cookie cutter.   While I could have adjusted I was burned out after 5 years.

I felt it was done to dumb it down for new players since around the time of WotLK there were morons who felt only the raid approved spec was correct.  So Blizzard took away those choices.  Much like the Lotro trees.

I deleted those characters because I was done playing.  My account was hacked a few months prior and I did not want the hackers to have access to an account with characters or gear.  I did it to protect my Guild.  They may invite my old characters back after seeing the name.  

There was zero rage involved in the quit since I left to play Lotro full time.  Was I unhappy about the changes made to WoW yes.  But I got over it very quickly and pretty much forgot about it when I began raiding in Lotro.  And same goes for Lotro.  When the raids stopped I moved to Rift.  Although there was rage involved in that move mostly against the developer for poor quality and many other reasons. And yes the trait tree was one of them.  

I don't believe I made fun of you in any of my posts.  And I certainly don't appreciate the way you handled my comments.  No where in here did I dis wow or your opinion.  Quite the opposite in my first posts.  But your making this personal.   I even mentioned that my comments were based on personal preference and not fact to everyone.  

 

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Still want to argue?

Nothing personal man.  And come on, I certainly haven't "flamed" you.  The last post was intended to poke fun, yes, although it didn't refer to you directly and I don't think anyone could have interpreted it as serious.

I found some of what you originally posted irrational (in my opinion!) and funny.  Your original comments were much more extreme and categorical (and therefore easier to poke fun at) than your most recent follow-up.

You are obviously entitled to your own opinions about what video games you do or don't want to play, for whatever reasons.  That goes without saying.

On the other hand, when you try to dismiss a game that has an extremely hard-core following, with hundreds, if not thousands, of sites dedicated to analysis, much of it extremely sophisticated, as having been "dumbed down", I think that makes you look ill-informed and silly, and is sort of inviting a rebuke.

 

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Nothing personal man.  And come on, I certainly haven't "flamed" you.  The last post was intended to poke fun, yes, although it didn't refer to you directly and I don't think anyone could have interpreted it as serious.

I found some of what you originally posted irrational (in my opinion!) and funny.  Your original comments were much more extreme and categorical (and therefore easier to poke fun at) than your most recent follow-up.

You are obviously entitled to your own opinions about what video games you do or don't want to play, for whatever reasons.  That goes without saying.

On the other hand, when you try to dismiss a game that has an extremely hard-core following, with hundreds, if not thousands, of sites dedicated to analysis, much of it extremely sophisticated, as having been "dumbed down", I think that makes you look ill-informed and silly, and is sort of inviting a rebuke.

 

You must have missed the several hundred posts where I praised the game on this forum.   If you were around for the early xpacs or vanilla you might understand my comments a bit more.  

My dumbing down comment was specifically aimed at trait tree.  And not the entire game.  Never have I tried to " dismiss the game".  I think WoW is well worth the price of admission.  Your coming at me as if I never played it.  I have had 5 of my best mmo years in the game.  Nearly a thousand dollars I gave to blizzard.  From questing in Westfall to sacking the Lich King.  

Blizzard makes every other mmo look minor league.  Do they make mistakes?  What developer doesn't.

You mentioned returning to the game and I just gave the reasons I would not.   Home doesn't feel like home when someone has redecorated and taken away the old familiar stuff and players!  

Something I was just thinking about, isn't it unusual for Blizzard to announce a WoW Xpac somewhere other than Blizzcon? Maybe not, it just seems I remember all/most of them being announced there.

All of them I can remember.  They do that power point presentation.  And people dress up like Illidan.  I went one year and I dressed up like The Quinn but no one understood the costume lol.  The only bad part were the 10 chicks behind me screaming at the top of their lungs at every single comment.  Each power point bullet got a scream.   

Overall a fun time.  

Edited by Thequinn
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Blizzard makes every other mmo look minor league.  

 

i think the tide is changing, Quinn. WoW is down to 5.6 million subscribers and FFXIV is up to 4 million. if anyone can topple the beast, i think it's going to be FFXIV. WoW really needs to hit a homerun with this next xpac.

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Do those sub numbers include WoW tokens?  Every WoW token sold is a 33% revenue increase over the sub it replaces.

yes, according to the data provided by blizzard, the tokens were included in the sub numbers as they were launched in Q2.

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i think the tide is changing, Quinn. WoW is down to 5.6 million subscribers and FFXIV is up to 4 million. if anyone can topple the beast, i think it's going to be FFXIV. WoW really needs to hit a homerun with this next xpac.

WoW is still a much better game than FFXIV. FFXIV has it's pros and cons but I don't think it will rise as the MMO that everyone is playing.

It is more likely there will be several successful MMOs, including WoW, FFXIV and GW2 out there. I don't think WoW will be toppled - even if it has less players than before (it still has a huge number subscribing). I can't see FFXIV being the number one dominant MMO - it is too niche. Maybe a great game - but not for everyone.

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Or the overall population of these games is falling.   Mmorpgs in general.  Many of the early adopters are getting older.  And even single player games like Skyrim or pvp Mobas might be stealing them.  Or in my case a game like pillars of eternity.  

I think what all these games need is a very fresh perspective.  Nothing earth shattering.  The times they have tried it, it backfired.  See daily quests as an endgame.  WOW did some interesting things with pvp during Wrath.  Vehicles, wall defenses, etc.  

Lots of the newest mmos have not been meeting expectations.  And yes SWTOR, Wildstar, ESO, Destiny, Archage and Never winter I'm looking at you.  Players leave for those and maybe give up on mmos.   

Fictional numbers. Let's play.  Say at WoWs peak the total number of mmo players was 35 million.  What if today that total number was 25 million.  I would think all games would show attrition.  Not just WOW.  

But I think individually some of it had to do with certain features in the individual games causing players to leave.  New raids no longer being offered in Lotro.  Lots of my former WOW guildies left during MOP due to its endgame setup.  

All and all I still like playing these games. While I don't think the overall population is dying I see it as normalizing.

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Or the overall population of these games is falling.   Mmorpgs in general.  Many of the early adopters are getting older.  And even single player games like Skyrim or pvp Mobas might be stealing them.  Or in my case a game like pillars of eternity.  

I think what all these games need is a very fresh perspective.  Nothing earth shattering.  The times they have tried it, it backfired.  See daily quests as an endgame.  WOW did some interesting things with pvp during Wrath.  Vehicles, wall defenses, etc.  

Lots of the newest mmos have not been meeting expectations.  And yes SWTOR, Wildstar, ESO, Destiny, Archage and Never winter I'm looking at you.  Players leave for those and maybe give up on mmos.   

Fictional numbers. Let's play.  Say at WoWs peak the total number of mmo players was 35 million.  What if today that total number was 25 million.  I would think all games would show attrition.  Not just WOW.  

But I think individually some of it had to do with certain features in the individual games causing players to leave.  New raids no longer being offered in Lotro.  Lots of my former WOW guildies left during MOP due to its endgame setup.  

All and all I still like playing these games. While I don't think the overall population is dying I see it as normalizing.

i only bring up FFXIV because it is a sub only game and in my eyes, the only one you can compare to WoW for that reason alone.  

i'm all for rooting for the underdog.  if you compare the rough start that FFXIV had to where the game is now, you can't help but admire what they have done.  and the content they push out on a continuous basis....some would argue it's too much, if such a thing is possible.

for me, FFXIV is bringing that fresh perspective...don't get me wrong, it's still a tab targeting WoW clone at it's core, but it has an engaging story that grabs hold of you (and i have no prior experience with the final fantasy lore, my first intro to it all was with this game), and there are lots of other things like the deep crafting system, the dungeons and raids, etc. etc.  oh, and the game looks fucking amazing.  that never hurts :)

i'm not trying to flame WoW or those who still play it (i did myself for a bit), the fact that it still has that number of subs after all these years is amazing to be honest.  i just think that FFXIV is giving them some serious competition (which is a good thing) and they might want to step up their game a bit.

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I think you missed that Bel said these are not *active* subscribers. It would be very different if they had 4 million *current* subscribers, but this is 4 million accounts that were subscribed at one point, and now may not be active.
Here is a discussion on this: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/38o9lp/4_million_active_subscribers/

So, no, there are not 4 million people currently subscribed. 

Someone thought this: "Every evidence indicates that active subscribers count is around 1m-1.5m for JP, EU and NA"

__________________

Everything else in your last post I can agree with. It does seem like FFXIV is good and getting popular. I am sure Blizzard will try to recover with their next expansion. It's hard to make changes to WoW that everyone likes, and sometimes they take a risk and it doesn't work out (like garrisons, which were liked a lot at first, but then were disliked enough cause some players to leave).

Edited by nosam9
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Or the overall population of these games is falling.   Mmorpgs in general.  Many of the early adopters are getting older.  And even single player games like Skyrim or pvp Mobas might be stealing them.  Or in my case a game like pillars of eternity. 

I agree.


Some players leave because they don't want to run on mmo grind skinner box anymore.  Some others mmorpg players leave for more focused games, i.e. those who were doing arenas/battlegrounds go to various pvp lobby games,  those who were doing open pvp go to various pvp/survival open pvp games (DayZ, Ark, Arma 3 mods, etc) and so on.

Those who were playing MMORPGs for questing may even go to single player RPG games like Pillars of Eternity, Divinity:OS, Wasteland 2, etc which usually is totally superior to MMO questing or to games like The Witcher 3 that aside of much superior questing have world details and graphics that completly destroy any MMO.

 

PS. I am sure that FF XIV does not have 4 mln subs,  but hell even 500k or 1mln subs is alot and definately very profitable.  After all FF XI was one of main SE money earner for long years and I don't think it ever exceeded few hundread thousand subs.

PS2. I don't think WoW will permanently rebound ever anymore.  Expansions may bring lot of people back if marketting is good but between expansions new lows for WoW will continue to be met.  I just wonder whether Blizzard will actually go F2P with WoW at some point.

Edited by drul
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World of Warcraft: Legion

New hero class: Demon-hunter - two specs, tank and dps (only night/blood elf race?)

"Artifact weapons"

"Class Orders"

Set on the "Broken Isles" (new continent)

"Biggest demonic invasion of Azeroth EVER"

First raid: "The Emerald Nightmare" (7 bosses - The Emerald Dream twisted and corrupted)

Second raid: "Suramar Palace" (10 bosses - Guldan is endboss)

New Honor system with PvP-specific talents and prestige rewards

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I think you missed that Bel said these are not *active* subscribers. It would be very different if they had 4 million *current* subscribers, but this is 4 million accounts that were subscribed at one point, and now may not be active.Here is a discussion on this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/38o9lp/4_million_active_subscribers/

So, no, there are not 4 million people currently subscribed. 

Someone thought this: "Every evidence indicates that active subscribers count is around 1m-1.5m for JP, EU and NA"

__________________

Everything else in your last post I can agree with. It does seem like FFXIV is good and getting popular. I am sure Blizzard will try to recover with their next expansion. It's hard to make changes to WoW that everyone likes, and sometimes they take a risk and it doesn't work out (like garrisons, which were liked a lot at first, but then were disliked enough cause some players to leave).

Hmn, if it was the case that his numbers were all subs and not just active ones then, how does that work out? Because if it wasn't only active subs then the numbers would be well above 11 million which iirc was the peak figure for total subs.

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