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Turbine ruined both DDO and LotRO.


shirker
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I don't agree that lotro should be compared to dead MMO's like COnan (it's shuttered, right?) or Warhammer.  But I do agree that it's not popular now.  My question is, what is popular now then?  LOTRO was #2 for a while.  Can Guild Wars 2 compare since its not a sub?  I've never played it so I don't know, just asking.  I heard that SWTOR is doing poorly, and Rift is basically doing as well as LOTRO.  Defiance bombed.  Wildstar bombed.  Eldar Scrolls didn't make a dent.  WHere's #2 now? 

You seem to lack a lot of knowledge of current MMOs - not that you should know all this stuff.

1. Rift is doing very well. They put out a huge expansion, and have continued to improve the game regularly. Currently one of the best F2P MMOs out there - although it has it's weaknesses and apparently the engine is not as good as some other MMOs like GW2. Rift has a health population and is profitable. The game and the population is in much, much better shape than Lotro.

2. Conan is still running. Funcom did not do right by this game - I guess due to funding issues. But it's still running - like Lotro. I believe it has less population though. 

3. WIldstar has kept on - even though it did not succeed in what it wanted to do. Wildstart is going F2P very soon. They are pouring money into the game and have improved it a lot. It has some flaws, but will be very popular when it goes F2P. It is a AAA MMO with some big flaws. Not at all dead yet.

4. ESO is running very strong - as is FFXIV of course. GW2 is one of the top 3 MMOs (WoW, GW2 and FFXIV). SWTOR is still surviving and being developed and improved in a way that shows money is still being put into it. It has a restrictive F2P model and optional sub.

5. Tera has gotten a lot of interest recently, and is one of the top current MMOs - with a smaller population base. A generic, flawed Asian MMO with good combat. Archeage did flop but has lots of players still. Black Desert Online and other up and coming MMOs are also going to arrive on the scene, and will gain a lot of new players.

I think games like ARK have taken away from the MMO player population. My intuition is a lot of MMO players are playing ARK, single-player games and Hearthstone. H1Z1, Day Z and some other games also have bug followings. Multiplayer no longer means MMO - although of course there is a huge demand for MMOs as a unique genre. Many MMO players seem to bounce from game to game though.  WoW -> Rift -> SWTOR -> GW2 -> Archeage -> ESO -> etc.

Top MMOs in the West today: WoW, FFXIV, GW2, ESO.

Second most popular MMOs: Rift, WildStar, Tera, SWTOR. 

Edited by nosam9
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You seem to lack a lot of knowledge of current MMOs

For sure.  I've never claimed to be up on MMO's in general and wouldn't even call myself a gamer.  I'm a LOTR fan who used to play RPG's and RTS's.  I Watched the MMO genre launch out of the RTS genre (Ultima, Warcraft) but found it easy to resist until LOTRO.  Tried WoW, Conan and SWTOR, even did the H1Z1 alpha for a minute but without the LOTR IP, and the LOTRO controls and HUD, I just couldn't get into them.  They say being in 2nd is really being the first of the losers, and it seems to be the case with MMO's because to get onto my non-gamer radar, you gotta be a big deal and I wouldn't say FFIV and GW2 fit that bill, though I have no reason to disagree with your ranking.  

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Multiplayer no longer means MMO -

Multiplayer never meant MMO.  It is just many MMO(RPG) players who perceived multiplayer gaming like that not noticing millions of players playing non-MMO games through internet.

That is because many players were introduced to multiplayer gaming through internet by World of Warcraft (and other MMOs) and they played MMOs exclusively for multiplayer experience making MMOs synonimous with multiplayer.   Truth though was that multiplayer gaming in internet had always huge numbers in non-MMO from browser strategy games, through real time strategies, battle.net games to first person perspective shooters and more.

MMO(RPG) players just either not realized that there are huge number of other non-MMO multiplayer games and gamers or they were not interested in them. 

It is just that in last 5 years or so, MMORPGs started to have big problems and so all MMO(RPG) players, MMO websites and many game companies including ex-MMO only companies started to develop non-MMO multiplayer games.   Western companies adopting microtransactions more for some of their games also matter.  So are other things like better developement tools and more easy to use game engines, etc

Edited by drul
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Many MMO players seem to bounce from game to game though.  WoW -> Rift -> SWTOR -> GW2 -> Archeage -> ESO -> etc.

Well that is just MMO(RPG) genre now.  It is stagnant genre that mainly reuses it's 'veteran' gaming population over and over, having big problems in bringing fresh blood and hemmoraging it's veteran users to other genres of games.

I have no solid proof but even succesful MMORPGs like FF XIV 2.0 IMHO are thriving because they siphon players from those MMO(RPG)s that cannot keep their players anymore. (from Lotro to even WoW lately) rather than bringing new fresh players into the genre.

Edited by drul
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What I like about ARK is that it fuses Minecraft with Jurassic Park and gives you something completely new.  And yes, I will run you over with my brontosaurus....

ARK is interesting because it has a lot of MMO elements, including crafting armor, armor with stats, mounts, levels, stats, inventory, etc. 

ARK is really badly optimized, and stole a ton of elements from Rust. They made a killing putting out an unfinished, very badly optimized game. I wonder if they will be able to keep their current popularity. 

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ARK is interesting because it has a lot of MMO elements, including crafting armor, armor with stats, mounts, levels, stats, inventory, etc. 

ARK is really badly optimized, and stole a ton of elements from Rust. They made a killing putting out an unfinished, very badly optimized game. I wonder if they will be able to keep their current popularity. 

It's a shame that badly optimized games have become the norm apparently.

Rust, H1Z1... and now Ark.

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What is significant is the makers of ARK hyped up a game that was barely finished - just to a playable state, pushed it out, and sold a huge number of copies. Using Dinosaurs to sell the game. They made a killing on ARK - but it is really in bad shape performance-wise. They also blatantly stole Rust's base building system and some other features. The landscape does look nice though.

Facepunch, the makers of Rust did not hype their game at all.  Zero money spent on advertising. And the first version ran very well, 10X better than ARK in terms of performance. The new version of Rust has problems with performance, but the version most people bought and played runs very well on lower end PCs. Facepunch made millions on Rust - $20 a copy - I think either $12 million or $20 million on Rust. But people only bought it because it was fun. They bought a game they wanted, instead of buying a game because of hype and dinosaurs! and then finding out 1) it did not run well on most PCs, and 2) it is not balanced and is incredibly grind to do many things in game. So you have a very fun game (Rust) versus a game that does not live up to some of the hype. It's not as good as people hoped it would be.

 

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Well that is just MMO(RPG) genre now.  It is stagnant genre that mainly reuses it's 'veteran' gaming population over and over, having big problems in bringing fresh blood and hemmoraging it's veteran users to other genres of games.

I have no solid proof but even succesful MMORPGs like FF XIV 2.0 IMHO are thriving because they siphon players from those MMO(RPG)s that cannot keep their players anymore. (from Lotro to even WoW lately) rather than bringing new fresh players into the genre.

Yea the mmo genre stopped growing sometime ago those in it just bounce around last major influx of new demographics was WoW launch.  Since then same people different mmo's.  I don't think a single mmo other than EVE actually brought in new demographics and kept them.  Some like LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO pulled outsiders from an existing  IP.  But other than a relatively few die-hards in each didn't keep a large percentage of em.

 

And MMO originally ment Massively Multiplayer 100s-100,000s in the same game world.  1 single world not a series of battle maps.   At the time most non-mmo multiplayer games you had 8-16 on avg.  Hell back then LAN parties were a thing.  They also introduced the concept of persistent worlds.  These days even single player games are growing multiplayer capability, while mmo worlds continue to shrink, instances, invisible barriers, cant support 100+ players in a zone (SWTOR Fleet) etcetera.

Edited by Bendin
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Do the research, ARK is also early access, as seen: http://store.steampowered.com/app/346110/

It can afford to be feature incomplete and unoptimized as it's understood to still be in development.

I mean, look at Kerbal Space Program, which went from a horrendous student project to a pretty fully featured sim NASA - and NASA even made a mod for the game as well (which is inbox).

Minecraft did the same thing too, as it had a very long alpha and beta period where the game was still in development, yet was exploding in popularity.

few differences between KSP and ARC I play both.  KSP had, has, and will likely always have a demo(try before you buy).  ARC does not.

 

KSP isn't to much a multiplayer game although there is a mod for it,  ARC actively discourages single play, you have to jump through hoops just to find the damn single player option in the server hosting screen.   Yes the server hosting screen...for single player....face palm.  There's been a standard for this since the damn 80s-90s.  Sometimes remaking the wheel makes you look like an idiot.  But it's placement probably is indicative of their view on the SP aspect and is merely there so they can market "WE HAZ IT" regardless whether it's any good or not.  At least KSP was honest about it not focusing on multiplayer.

KSP even at it's most bare bones had it's core game mechanic working as intended, building stuff, launching it, and watching it blow up, or not.  That continues to be the main mechanic in the game.  Some would even argue that the last few years of development on career mode was somewhat wasted.  Some would argue even today the most time tends to be spent in the sandbox.  If true they could have cut a year or two off development and have delivered much the same game.  Might have been different if there had been a story arc, but the whole procedural contracts thing didn't catch on so much.   And science just tended to be a grind, no different intellectually/mechanically than applying pick to rock in any other game.

ARCs core mechanic, taming, is according to the devs still a placeholder system till they figure out something better.  The survivor aspect of the game play is a dime a dozen on Steam.

 

Optimization wise ARC is still  somewhat in the garbage stage, particularly on it's official servers.  This compares unfairly to ARC/KSP as KSP didn't really have to worry over much about the multiplayer aspect, so apples/oranges.  On the flip side of that heavy mod use crippled load times in KSP so meh in some cases over 30 minutes just to start the darn thing.

 

Edited by Bendin
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Probably because of the upcoming movies, I'd say SWTOR has a lot more hope, & I personally think their new expansion seems interesting.   With LOTRO, the movies are over, and Turbine did nothing to run with The Hobbit, anyway.  

I tried Rift - it just seemed like a WoW clone with a strange, built in lag & very good housing.  I didn't hate it, but I didn't stick with it, either. Wildstar annoyed me with its first ad, & I was never tempted to investigate deeper.  WoW - I've gone back to it a few times, but by the end, I deeply disliked it on many levels.  I dutifully raided, found I liked it no more than I ever had before, & finally quit that again, after proving to myself that I could do it to the heroic level, well, & still found it an abomination against my time.  (I actually preferred their LFR, because I didn't have to spend 3+ hours on a bi-weekly basis, which generally felt like a 3 hour drive to Boston on a slow bus with people who talk constantly, & keep going the wrong way.  This is considering the rudeness & abuse you endure in LFR, which indicates that I really, really didn't enjoy serious raiding. I never want to do anything in any game, ever again, where I have to ask if I can take a break to use the bathroom or let my dogs out.) I get why other people like it, but I just can't.  (I do like instances with groups of people I know, however)

ESO - that seemed like an epic disaster. I was in beta for that, & hated it enough not to bother when it launched.  The only MMO I found acceptable was SWTOR, mainly for the story.  But it does feel like a single player game with some multi player options, rather than an MMO.  I'm pretty much done with MMOs anyway, so maybe that's a good thing.  I don't *care* about SW as I do about LOTR, so I'm less offended if they get something wrong.  

GW2 - I have such mixed feelings about that one.  In some ways, I thought it was great. I had a great time, got most classes to max, but over time, it just irritated me. (their money grab store must make Turbine green with envy)  The classes, I thought, were weirdly imbalanced.  (which I guess is true for most MMOs, but this one annoyed me more.)  It's pretty, but almost too pretty.  (I once tried Aion - I can't begin to say how I hated its pretty-prettiness, & this is why I avoid FF - human females should not look like adorably cutesy dolls on tiny high heeled shoes. For that matter, neither should men.)  

I'll most likely go back to SWTOR, at least until I see how this expansion goes.  I'll probably play GW2 some, but I didn't like its combat, though I liked the speed & movement very much.   (for one thing, it seems mainly focused on pvp, & I don't like pvp, so there's that. But I found their WvW just a giant zerg mess, though I did it for quite a while, just out of stubbornness.)  As opposed to SWTOR, the stories are - eh.  At first, some are great. (I loved the Asura, but the humans were dull, as humans too often are) The story progresses until, maybe, L40, with a lot of interesting options, Then you run into perhaps THE most annoying NPC ever invented, & get stuck with him, as your character basically disappears.  After that, it gets possibly worse, when your now-nothing character follows this bad fan-fic group around, & stands there idle while they banter.  That was deeply awful, & about when I quit.   I gather the newer stories are better, but I don't like the combat enough to find out. They also seem determined to force people into huge guilds, & that's an absolute, "Never" for me.  I also recognized that GW2 was pretty, but I still prefer LOTRO for environment, maybe because it's not so airy-fairy/pastel.  In contrast, of course, the GW2 character models are 1000x better.  SWTOR had a stunningly bland environment, ok but repetitive models. Maybe they'll improve that, though I doubt it.  

 

eta:  What DID happen to Age of Conan?  I played that when it launched, liked it briefly, then  stopped. (I think I stopped when you could buy a concubine, or something. Human trafficking just doesn't seem ok, even in Conan)  It was also pretty, though the character races were dull & I never did make a character I liked. I think I ended up with some guy because I couldn't make a female I liked.  But I didn't care for him much, either.  I just remember thinking it had promise, then dropped off at L20, when suddenly, no NPC is voiced & nothing really happens again.

 

Edited by Ceridwen8
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Hmm.... http://steamcharts.com/cmp/346110,252490#All basically backs up what you're saying, as ARK's already on the down curve.... it will be interesting to see what happens next, though.

To be fair some of what's driving that is the asshatery that is their official servers.  I watched the same trend with Space Engineers(didn't buy this one).  It will be interesting to see if they continue to ignore them and loose market share or get off their ass and address it.  If you call something "an official" server it reflects on your game good/bad/ugly.  There are already gobs of YouTube pages about those servers that I can't help but surmise is hurting market share.  At the bare minimum admin the darn things.

EDIT

Generally speaking if the first, most common, and most accurate piece of advice you get when considering to buy is "don't play on official" go play on "someone's private server", you stand a fair chance of loosing that customer.

Edited by Bendin
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IGN leaked just today that GW2  it will go F2P for the core game, not including the expansion. So free for the first part of the game without buying anything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/3imt1r/ign_leaked_arenanets_pax_2015_announcement_on/

Makes sense really, how longs it been out? By now anyone who was gonna buy would have done so.  This gives another bite of the apple to fresh worms via the store & xpacs who come in for f2p.  And unlike a sub game there isn't really a downside for em going f2p.

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Well that is just MMO(RPG) genre now.  It is stagnant genre that mainly reuses it's 'veteran' gaming population over and over, having big problems in bringing fresh blood and hemmoraging it's veteran users to other genres of games.

I have no solid proof but even succesful MMORPGs like FF XIV 2.0 IMHO are thriving because they siphon players from those MMO(RPG)s that cannot keep their players anymore. (from Lotro to even WoW lately) rather than bringing new fresh players into the genre.

I'll tell ya what, what us old time vets really want was for the developers to keep the gameplay consistent.  Just like other franchises I take up to play.  We want less crap in the shop that is clearly neccesary to make the game enjoyable.  ie: legendary items.  And the expansions need to be consistent with previous editions.  If your last xpac had 8 small group instance your next better.  

This is most of the people I play withs opinion.  There's a reason my guildies migrate back to wow private servers.  Currently our obsession is WotLK.  Above all don't change for the sense of changing.  I can understand after a while things need fixing or updates.  Revamps need to be well done and familiar to the playerbase.  

And ffs do not release an xpac fans think is a developer troll.  Aka pandas.  There's to much catering to new fans rather than retaining old ones.  If they need a gimmick to start playing they probably are not long term players.

Slap what ever franchise title you want at the top.  We had players as young as 20 and as old as 75 in my guilds/kins.  It isn't that our family time is getting in the way, we have just moved on to other games. The same time we spent before is spent elsewhere.  It seems today its more about fitting in micro transactions to premium games.  At least with a game like battlefield it goes further in the shape of new guns and maps.  Its maddening to see characters in fighting games going for real cash.  Mainly because you used to unlock those in game.

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I'll tell ya what, what us old time vets really want was for the developers to keep the gameplay consistent.  Just like other franchises I take up to play.  We want less crap in the shop that is clearly neccesary to make the game enjoyable.  ie: legendary items.  And the expansions need to be consistent with previous editions.  If your last xpac had 8 small group instance your next better.  

This is most of the people I play withs opinion.  There's a reason my guildies migrate back to wow private servers.  Currently our obsession is WotLK.  Above all don't change for the sense of changing.  I can understand after a while things need fixing or updates.  Revamps need to be well done and familiar to the playerbase.  

And ffs do not release an xpac fans think is a developer troll.  Aka pandas.  There's to much catering to new fans rather than retaining old ones.  If they need a gimmick to start playing they probably are not long term players.

Slap what ever franchise title you want at the top.  We had players as young as 20 and as old as 75 in my guilds/kins.  It isn't that our family time is getting in the way, we have just moved on to other games. The same time we spent before is spent elsewhere.  It seems today its more about fitting in micro transactions to premium games.  At least with a game like battlefield it goes further in the shape of new guns and maps.  Its maddening to see characters in fighting games going for real cash.  Mainly because you used to unlock those in game.

 

I'm still hop full enough companies like Turbine, EA, WB, Sony piss off the investment community so much no one invests  anymore.  Perhaps then 90's level of games innovation will return to MMOGS.  But as long as production costs run as they do, and as long as MBA's believe the shit that those "professional game market analysis" shills come up with it won't change very much I think.  Hopefully the MOBA and Mobile trends will burn a few more bridges.   Right now too many people have their hand out from "consultants" to resume warriors and too many people migrate from one company to another accomplishing jack that's new within the industry for change.  It's an industry that defines mediocrity and as long as profit can be derived from mediocrity it will remain so.

Edited by Bendin
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Or if they do bring in something new, it would be nice if they'd work on it until it *works.*  Like mounted combat.  Epic Battles.  If they want me to build a town, then I'd better own that town, & it had better be invaded frequently!   Or at least be useful in some regard.  

Turbine, more than any game I've played, seems to fling new stuff at you, fail to recognize its stunningly obvious flaws, then march on heedless to the next 'great new thing!'  My horse, full on agility, still moves like a ship in full sail in a tiny harbor.  Epic Battles still have the same glitches they did in beta.  (and they're still terrible. I've dutifully done them on 4 characters until I have all my promotion points & am bedecked in gold jewels, & I still find them unfun & completely un-epic)   

The store is completely intrusive.   That you really have to use it to level up legacies & such - that drove several of my kinmates away long ago.  I don't mind buying cosmetic things, but stuff like mithril coin travel... BAD feeling there! I don't know how many times I've gone on a fetch quest, completed it, then had to resist or succumb to the desire to insta-port back.  And usually it's a long, tedious, often confusing ride back otherwise.  Just - cheap, Turbine.  Even the Bingo quests - that 'run back & forth to pick up his stuff' quest series felt like a jerk move to me.  It's not cute - it's just - they *really* don't like their players much, do they?  (and why I've done them in the first place is - well, I'm really sick of big battles...)

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That's easy for KSP: Force it to run in OpenGL mod, then get ActiveTexture Management.  First load is a bitch (as it's converting all of the textures not in DDS to DDS), then after that it's not quite as bad, and remarkably stable, granted I'm only running w/ 39 mods (going by the CKAN count - probably less actual ones), and focusing on a mostly stock-esque experience.

That's what I noticed about Turbine.  They like throwing stuff at the wall.

Event whey they shouldn't.

And stuff sticks... sometimes because it's shit being thrown at the wall and it splattered.

Lol some people out there run 100s of mods, most of em parts mods which are the worst.  I tried once...never again I tend to limit myself to less than 30 as well.  And I rarely use parts mods.  A few people tried running every possible part mod at the same time after the NASA patch as a test,  I don't think anyone ever successfully loaded.  EDIT Wackjob may have but I think that guy runs the game from a server farm :D /EDIT

Edited by Bendin
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Turbine, more than any game I've played, seems to fling new stuff at you, fail to recognize its stunningly obvious flaws, then march on heedless to the next 'great new thing!'  

A lot of their development has been aimed at being able to hype some new shiny thing in order to get preorders. They made a TON of money on Riders of Rohan preorders and post-orders of the expansion because Mounted Combat sounded cool. What financial incentive did they have afterwards to fix MC? With Big Battles, they needed to have some new feature to hype up to distract players from the lack of content in the rest of the expansion. They don't really need to make Big Battles work and great - this new feature worked to keep players in the game and push expansion sales. Big Battles were key to they marketing efforts "fight against 3000 orcs!" - "something new and exciting being added to Lotro!!!"

Development has been driven by increasing purchases in the store - not by making the game a better experience for players, sadly. Now, they have no more expansions coming out, and nothing to hype up to get preorders - but they also have no money to go back and improve the badly made parts of the game. Most of their money now has to go to putting out new content so they can show players they are still making new content.  

They also still use the strategy of trying to keep players in game and waiting for something new - like the new PvP map or the major housing revamp promised that kept players hopeful and excited for many months.

______________________

This is the real effect of Lotro's F2P model. There is no longer an incentive to improve parts of the game - the real goal is store sales, not a good game. Compare to WoW, where devs keep polishing and improving the game - and as a result keep subscriptions high. If WoW had all these buggy and unfinished features, less people would subscribe.

Edited by nosam9
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It has all been hype, smoke and mirrors since Rise of Isengard. I remember hoping Turbine would actually make a good, large expansion after they went F2P when there were a ton of players in the game. All that money never went back in to the game. : (

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WoW, where devs keep polishing and improving the game - and as a result keep subscriptions high. If WoW had all these buggy and unfinished features, less people would subscribe.

you realize that WoW currently has the same amount of subscribers as it did 10 years ago right?
 

bad time to compare WoW to LotrO, hell if I were to believe anything I've read on the PVP forums in that game I'd say that LotrO pvp has it better.

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you realize that WoW currently has the same amount of subscribers as it did 10 years ago right?
 

bad time to compare WoW to LotrO, hell if I were to believe anything I've read on the PVP forums in that game I'd say that LotrO pvp has it better.

So what about number of subscribers? WoW has a lot of people subscribing, and it is because of the quality of the game. Of course subs go up and down, but they have millions of subscribers only because they keep the game in good shape. Lotro does not have an incentive to keep the game in good shape - that was my point. They only have an incentive to push store sales.

Yes, people complain about PvP with the latest expansion, but to say PvP in WoW is anything like PvP in Lotro is a joke. WoW has a good, extensive PvP system with a ton of options to play PvP and a ton of players using the PvP system. Compared to past WoW expansions, PvP might be worse, but it is easily 100x better than Lotro's. Movement, balance, lag/network code, loot and reward systems - all are so much better than Lotro's. But that is pretty obvious.

But maybe I am taking your comment to seriously : )

Edited by nosam9
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you realize that WoW currently has the same amount of subscribers as it did 10 years ago right?
 

bad time to compare WoW to LotrO, hell if I were to believe anything I've read on the PVP forums in that game I'd say that LotrO pvp has it better.

Wow may be in a bad spot compared to wow, but any other dev house/pub would take 5M subs everyday of the week and twice on Sundays in trade for whatever they have, and regardless of their nominal pay/play type.   They wish they had Wows problems.

 

 

@Almagnus as far as parts mods setting aside the texture issues I still rarely run heavy into parts mods.  For me, single launch Jool diver/accent vehicles seem ever so less epic in a heavy mudded modded game.  Same for asteroid return lifters from EVE shores.  Too many of those packs are over-powered and too many add gads of parts I'll never use and just clutter up the VAB.  I tend to run things like chatterer and the like.  Full disclosure I wasn't overly fond of the official NASA pack when it released, if you want to understand my warped personality.:9~:9~:9~:9~:9~:9~

Edited by Bendin
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Big Battles had that extra marketing push of being accessible at level 10 too, remember?  

I tried that on a L10, I think - once.  I've never seen such death & mayhem.   Granted, you're probably supposed to do it in a group, but if they want to shame & depress people, 'You can do this at L10!' would be a great method.  "Hi, Aragorn! I'm a L10 Hobbit Minstrel, here in HD, from Michel Delving, &  - hi!  Let me just take over & start telling these total strangers that I didn't know existed what to do next!"

Aside from the glitches & the 'why am I now a siege operator & not a RK' part, they just felt so non-epic.  One of the most exciting parts of the book, down to - this weird, flat experience.

However!  My son did the 'special class thing' on his Captain, & I truly haven't laughed that hard in ages.  (if this is a spoiler, sorry)   Seeing Aragorn pause & come back to get advice as to what inspiring words to say - over & over - I actually had tears.  And I looked forward to those special moments. (does anyone know if there have been any since? I think there was something that seemed aimed at the Pelennor Fields, warden or Guardian)  But the Captain's was - horrifying.  Yet still amazing, in a 'Turbine, WHY?' kind of way.

Back to the point, I personally compare LOTRO now with, say, EQ2, a game that should be on auto pilot, there for veterans, without expectation of great advancement.  And I'd be ok with that, if they'd fixed issues as they cropped up, but they have not.  They don't seem to have direction. They're not raid-committed like WoW, they're not PvP centered like GW2 seems to be.  They're not determinedly solo friendly, or story-focused like SWTOR.  I could go back several years & say, "Make up your damned mind!"  It's just such a frustrating game, existing on the shoulders of something much greater & dependent on the loyalty of people to that other, superior source.

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So what about number of subscribers? WoW has a lot of people subscribing, and it is because of the quality of the game. Of course subs go up and down, but they have millions of subscribers only because they keep the game in good shape. Lotro does not have an incentive to keep the game in good shape - that was my point. They only have an incentive to push store sales.

Yes, people complain about PvP with the latest expansion, but to say PvP in WoW is anything like PvP in Lotro is a joke. WoW has a good, extensive PvP system with a ton of options to play PvP and a ton of players using the PvP system. Compared to past WoW expansions, PvP might be worse, but it is easily 100x better than Lotro's. Movement, balance, lag/network code, loot and reward systems - all are so much better than Lotro's. But that is pretty obvious.

But maybe I am taking your comment to seriously : )

44% sub decrease in one expansion is a pretty big fucking ordeal regardless of numbers. I bet if their new crappy expansion wasn't announced yet we could see 3 million by the next quarterly report. still higher than every other MMO no fucking shit but I'm looking at it percent wise.

and though I haven't played retail WoW in years I'm basically reading the same shit that's going on LotrO: a laggy new PvP zone that encourages zergfests, class imbalance everywhere and shitty devs that don't care about that part of the game

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