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Turbine admits the HD class revamp was a mistake?


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He doesn't even understand the irony of these two statements.  Unless of course, he's just outright trolling you guys.

And it only took two years for them to kinda sorta perhaps admit it.

perhaps...in a very "Turbine" sort of way: post #56 https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?576412-Lotro-_needs_-a-comprehensive-bugfix-and-rebalance-update/page3

Do you mean this:

In general though, do not expect to see one big sweeping pass across all game skills and abilities. Large passes like that in a game of this type can be extremely dangerous. We prefer to make smaller tweaks so that there is focus and time to asses feedback from the community on the changes. Sweeping broad strokes can completely change the way a character is played and upset more people than you help and have knockdown affects across the entire game space that were unintended.

Because yes, I find it to be a very clear admission of screwing up with the class revamp. "Knockdown". Exactly! Let's see if a few more 'tweaks' and a server merge will bring the knockout...

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It should be no surprise that HD hit them hard. It was a terrible 'expansion' and destroyed everyone's characters. Turbine never care if they fuck people over and they stay, but they took away any reason for them to stay and now they've learnt their lesson. Too late, though.

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It sounded to me that they'd rather push out content than get to work on the games current problems.  She listed those class problems as secondary.  This just means that the team is real small otherwise work on both at once.  I think anyone whose hoping for them to do more than minor fixes or simply add numbers to their stupid chart is expecting too much from an already overworked team

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All I see is them trying to make excuses as to why they aren't doing jack shit about balance

Exactly. It is possible V. is talking about how the big class changes were bad, but she is mainly saying "Don't expect a lot of bug fixes, because we don't want to change the game too much because players don't like it". It is just slimy PR talk.

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Do you mean this:

Because yes, I find it to be a very clear admission of screwing up with the class revamp. "Knockdown". Exactly! Let's see if a few more 'tweaks' and a server merge will bring the knockout...

Absolutely in agreement here. That statement wouldn't be worded like that if it wasn't an admission.

It sounded to me like... they have a scheduling system for design focus, which she Vy stated quite clearly that's been around for a while...

I think you guys really try to read to much into her posts.

I'm with Doro on this one, you did not read it enough. Or maybe you didn't comprehend fully what was actually said.

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And you don't read enough. They say 'big changes cause fuck ups', after already having made a big change, and you go 'well probably nothing'.

 

Or maybe you didn't comprehend fully what was actually said.

 

Emphasis Added:

In general though, do not expect to see one big sweeping pass across all game skills and abilities. Large passes like that in a game of this type can be extremely dangerous. We prefer to make smaller tweaks so that there is focus and time to asses feedback from the community on the changes. Sweeping broad strokes can completely change the way a character is played and upset more people than you help and have knockdown affects across the entire game space that were unintended.

This is pretty standard stuff, the kind we've seen plenty of in the past 8 years.

I've met Vyvyanne.  One thing I took away from speaking to her and seeing her in the ex-prod role is that she's pretty straight forward in meaning precisely what she says and being clear, which I may add are good qualities for an executive producer - who's job is really in managing a team to keep releases on time and content as expected - more so than PR.

I would encourage you guys to stick to what she says, and try to add less personal perspective.

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Emphasis Added:

This is pretty standard stuff, the kind we've seen plenty of in the past 8 years.

I've met Vyvyanne.  One thing I took away from speaking to her and seeing her in the ex-prod role is that she's pretty straight forward in meaning precisely what she says and being clear, which I may add are good qualities for an executive producer - who's job is really in managing a team to keep releases on time and content as expected - more so than PR.

I would encourage you guys to stick to what she says, and try to add less personal perspective.

blinders.jpg

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Yeah, I'm with Stickeez on this one.

You guys just **LOVE** to tear Turbine apart for everything they do.  Yet when things actually start to look like things are going to die, almost everyone backs off, except for Dakilven, who's got a psychopathic hatred of Turbine (and probably needs counseling for the butthurt).

I mean, if you've been banned from the game, why do you still care enough to post about it?  Own the fact that you fucked up and move on.

 

That was 4 years ago. I started over on another account. 2legit2quit since I've been playing since release. I lost a few good creeps. 

 

But yeah, I do really fucking hate Turner Brothers. And I love reading about their fuck ups. You can ban a dude for bullshit for 30 years as well as ignore his ban appeals cuz fuck money. But don't give out 3 weeks to people who exploited mastery in the etts or 6 months to people who did that exploit AND rank farmed. That's just cruel. I had a worse temperament in WoW by far and the only ban I've got was 3 days (never once cheated in any game though). Turbine back at 2007 would've handed out permas to all those exploiting kids like candy on halloween.

 

Hell, they even undelete characters for free in WoW too. Motherfuckers at Turbine tried to bill me $15 when I regretted deleting my 54 RK (After the WB merger of course)

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And for you that are actually delighting in Turbine's misfortune, that's textbook evil, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for doing so.

Oh yes, posting something in a forum about a video game company is pure evil. About as bad as you can get, right?

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Stickeez and Almagnus, there is no need to so much read between the lines in her statement, as it is quite clear and straightforward without looking for "hidden treasures". She describes what she calls "one big sweeping pass across all game skills and abilities" as "extremely dangerous". Now, don't want to dig into semantics and definitions here, but seriously, 'one big sweeping pass across all game skills and abilities' is exactly what the HD-tied class revamp was, and it was the first (and so far only) character revamp of such magnitude in the game. And it didn't end well. And we know it. And Turbine knows it. Nobody expects her to say "Remember the class revamp, guys? We screwed that one, sorry!".

The question at this point is not so much "Did they screw it?", and "Did they just admit screwing?" is not very interesting, actually. It's like wondering if BP really apologized for the oil spill - fine, and so what? It is more interesting (for me) to know why they decided to do the revamp in the first place, and what and how went wrong in the process. Because honestly, to this date I haven't seen a good, logical answer to that.

This has nothing personal to do with Vyvianne (who I don't know) or with banning from the game or the OF (which never happened to me).

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This is one time where the official forums are actually making more sense than the ones here.

Take Vyv's post at face value.  All I was doing was pointing out was that the HD/Orion scale of changes are never going to happen again.  I'm not going to stop you if you want to additional meaning into either post, but what Vyv said made perfect sense from an EP that's managing an agile software development process, which is basically the de facto way to develop software in the software industry, which also includes the game industry.

And for you that are actually delighting in Turbine's misfortune, that's textbook evil, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for doing so.

i hear what you are saying.  and i agree, this forum can be quite toxic at times. i just found her post, specifically the last two sentences...well, very ironic all things considered.  so, i assumed that she was, in her own way, saying that the HD skill revamp/trait tree mess was a mistake and one that was not going to happen again under her watch.

Edited by Papi
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Yeah, I'm with Stickeez on this one.

You guys just **LOVE** to tear Turbine apart for everything they do.  Yet when things actually start to look like things are going to die, almost everyone backs off, except for Dakilven, who's got a psychopathic hatred of Turbine (and probably needs counseling for the butthurt).

I mean, if you've been banned from the game, why do you still care enough to post about it?  Own the fact that you fucked up and move on.

what? If anything, an admission  to having fucked up with the skill trees would be a good thing. That would probably improve the views of Turbine for most people here. Ofcourse she isn't going to say it straight out, you can't throw the one who had the job before you under the bus like that.

I hope it is a sign that the "new" Turbine is determined to not make the same misstakes as the old Turbine. But trying to say that will ofcourse make the ""Turbine-haters"-haters" go crazy.

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All I see from the Vyv character are lengthy non answers.  You gonna fix this shit?  Well our priorities change every week...

 

Doesnt make a difference what she says, there is a limited budget and probably a skeleton crew working at Lotro.

 

Id love to feel all warm and fuzzy, my original kin is reforming, and as one of the last people to play this game I know, once they see how fucked it is with vague non answers about fixing it, this reunion will last about a week.

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what? If anything, an admission  to having fucked up with the skill trees would be a good thing. That would probably improve the views of Turbine for most people here. Ofcourse she isn't going to say it straight out, you can't throw the one who had the job before you under the bus like that.

I hope it is a sign that the "new" Turbine is determined to not make the same misstakes as the old Turbine. But trying to say that will ofcourse make the ""Turbine-haters"-haters" go crazy.

That admission from Vyv is most likely all we're going to get that HD screwed the pooch.  She didn't have to say it, but I'm glad she did and it does at least make it seem like someone there realizes the effect it had on the game and on many players.

I think that while the intentions at Turbine may be to turn things around in whatever limited way they can, their ability to execute isn't always up to the task.  The fact that AC is turning into a testbed for what not to do to migrate to new hardware doesn't fill me with confidence.  Yeah, the software is old, so what.  There should've been a team in place to handle testing the migration with a bullroarer-type server of all their games as soon as they knew they were going to migrate. FIrst come up with a plan, then start testing on the new hardware as soon as they could get their hands on it.

The only reason they're learning what not to do now is because they had to shut down the game - it's a reactive stance, not a proactive one.  How many more "Duh, we never thought of that!" situations are they going to run into when they migrate LOTRO?    They thought that they could turn off new character creation on the closing worlds, until they realized that it broke session plays.  Nobody thought of that until they saw it in action.  

Most of the dwindling number people who are left don't know the software well enough, and the ones who do know it are probably swamped from all the fires they have to put out.  Personally I think they're in over their heads, and I feel for them.

For the record, I'm not banned from the OF, never had as much as a warning, let alone an infraction.  I still play the game, though not as much as I used to.  My disdain for Turbine comes from their their past attitudes of arrogance, especially from what I saw in the HD beta.  At least I got some shred of vindication in Vyv's implied admission that HD was exactly what so many of us told them it would be.

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