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Update 17 - What is it?


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Oh!, I get it... you're rping a self-important douche.  Great job! you really got in touch with the character.

I guess if you eat shit long enough you acquire a taste for it.

Eh? I've been invoked, so I appear. (This forum is still the best source of actual information about updates so I've been lurking). My assessment of Minas Tirith is similar to Warspeech's. I'll add my

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People are going to be SO upset when the new data center and servers don't solve all the performance problems.

Here is one player telling someone with lag that it will all get better soon:

"We are very close to having the new data centers and new hardware in place. The new hardware will dramatically increase performance."

That is just not going to happen.  

If they drastically decrease performance with U17, and can't fix it, they are going to drive a lot of people away from the game.

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A.    As far as crashing goes, I played Lotro as a regular player from June 2008 - Septemeber 2013 and you can probably include my HD experience although I was skimming the content and not hardcore.  I've seen the content in game from HD/Fangorn forward, but haven't seen it as an actual player but rather an observer watching my nephew who still plays.  This latest release was the first time I sat behind a keyboard and actually partook in the adventure.  I have never seen anything this bad.  Sure the other releases had their own problems, but I can not think of a time where I crashed to the desktop like this release unless you count every time I exited the game manually after ROR release.  Having to actually stop the process to get the game to quit while it hogged nearly 5 gb of my memory.  If the game had been crashing since moria as reliably as it does with the release of MT I certainly would have stopped my sub back then and saved $629.37 in sub fees and $108 dollars in xpacs (after moria) And nearly 100$ in TP purchases.  Not to mention the mithril pack I bought with a game stop gift card.  I think that was 15.99 at the time.  Sure it had problems but nothing like I have seen recently.  Even Lagtrev had less problems than MT and that used to irritate the hell out of me.  Tell these developers to stop using phasing to be lazy lol.

1. Subjective.  But I guess it's ok if I tell you not to be offended and call you an asshole?

2.   The complainers are different this time.  That is the biggest difference.  The people who usually criticize the so called "haters", the ones still playing the game and the ones who normally defend Turbine no matter how much shit they are made to eat.  This was certainly a new phenomenon for them.   Sure Turbine has been able to limp along through all the bad development and bugs.  That's says more about the popularity of the IP rather than the enjoyability (not sure if word)  of the game.  If it was set in Rifts, Wildstars or Secret Worlds universes, it would be tossed aside like many other games.

3.  That's a given.  Only because the development team is reduced to rubble.

You said this: "In order for Turbine to hear criticism it's got to be balanced and rational."

B,  No.  It needs to be truthful.  We've heard you bitch about the game enough to know that you're not some crazed fanboy.   While the gameplay issues are subjective the crash to desktop is not, and nothing I have ever seen in Lotro while playing.  You're saying that players are coming up with sky is falling scenarios for this release as if it's the first time Turbine has ever fucked up like this and that they should consider the past when making present statements.  It doesn't mean the end of Lotro but you can bet it's going to cause canceled subs and possibly a few less players floating around.  Those folks are voicing their frustrations.  For some it's just opening their eyes for others it's a final straw.  For my nephew it is his final straw.   He's playing on my brothers old lifetime account so Turbine will not be losing a ton of money from him.  

Balanced and rational is usually just a bullshit way of saying we don't care about your feedback when we are at fault and we will twist the facts to suit our liking.  Ask Fox News, it's practically their tag line.  I'm not saying the current Lotro staff thinks that way.   As far as we can all tell it's out of their control.  I'm almost 100% positive WB forced this release out.

A.  The game has been crashing since SOA. 

1.  I don't care at all what you call me.  But don't whine if I call you something back.

2.  They're always different because the playerbase has been churning since F2P.

B.  It does need to be balanced and rational if what you want is a better game.  If you just want to rage, then that's your business, but I see enough feathers get ruffled around here when some OF troll shows up to accuse us of that, that I don't believe it.  Turbine aren't evil...  they're stupid.  They don't know who to listen to.  Nowhere did I say POLITE like that shitbag Sapience used to spout.  Fuck polite.  But it's got to make real sense.  An ps, they don't care who quits, c'mon.  Threatening them now with a sub cancellation after the player exodus from 2012-14 is just laughable.  It didn't make them change course then, it won't now.     

B2.  All releases are forced out.  Not a single one is "finished" when released.  Even the one xpac they delayed, I forget which one it was, maybe HD.  But they've all been getting kicked out prematurely.  If it's not out, it's not generating revenue.

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First time I have posted to this forum, though I have been lurking for a long time.  I'm a long-term player - 10/08 - Present (though I did take a break for about two years in between RoR and DA).  I have a PC with specs very similar to what Almagnus1 quoted above, though with a better video card and running Windows 7 64-bit.  Every other game I own plays well with almost zero crashes and very low load times.  

This new release is unplayable for me.  I haven't made it ten minutes without crashing since the update.  And I've tried leaving MT and going elsewhere - I still crash.

I know that lots of people will say that Lotro has always crashed, and I'm sure that's true - it certainly crashed for me all the time on my Macbook.  But it had never once in two years crashed to desktop for me on this desktop PC until U17.  Not once.  Let me repeat, not once.  Even on my previous PC it never crashed more than once a week or so, and I have more than a year of /played time.....  

They screwed the pooch somewhere with this update, and claiming that it is no different from previous releases is just not an accurate representation of what I am seeing.   

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A.  The game has been crashing since SOA. 

1.  I don't care at all what you call me.  But don't whine if I call you something back.

2.  They're always different because the playerbase has been churning since F2P.

B.  It does need to be balanced and rational if what you want is a better game.  If you just want to rage, then that's your business, but I see enough feathers get ruffled around here when some OF troll shows up to accuse us of that, that I don't believe it.  Turbine aren't evil...  they're stupid.  They don't know who to listen to.  Nowhere did I say POLITE like that shitbag Sapience used to spout.  Fuck polite.  But it's got to make real sense.  An ps, they don't care who quits, c'mon.  Threatening them now with a sub cancellation after the player exodus from 2012-14 is just laughable.  It didn't make them change course then, it won't now.     

B2.  All releases are forced out.  Not a single one is "finished" when released.  Even the one xpac they delayed, I forget which one it was, maybe HD.  But they've all been getting kicked out prematurely.  If it's not out, it's not generating revenue.

I don't know maybe it's my ubber desktop but in my play time I have never experienced constant crashes.  Here and there while riding a warhorse?  Yup maybe 5 times.  I was never a casual player.  I was playing a minimum of 6 hours a day.  During ROR I had 7 max level toons all raid geared.  This problem they are having now is different from what I've seen. I've gotten horrible lag playing on an inferior machine in a full SKraid with everyones pet activated.  I remember getting huge spikes (2 to 5 minute loss of character control) from that, but it never crashed I always came back to a functioning game (32 bit OS, 2.2 ghz processor).  Never from anything as simple as opening a door and entering a new area.

I read through the forums today to see what you were talking about and mostly what I'm seeing is a bunch of other players who are having problems with the game and reaching the end of their rope.  Rationality is thrown out the window.  They have supported the game during it's darkest time, this is how they were rewarded.  Most are rational.  But the negative ones stand out.

First time I have posted to this forum, though I have been lurking for a long time.  I'm a long-term player - 10/08 - Present (though I did take a break for about two years in between RoR and DA).  I have a PC with specs very similar to what Almagnus1 quoted above, though with a better video card and running Windows 7 64-bit.  Every other game I own plays well with almost zero crashes and very low load times.  

This new release is unplayable for me.  I haven't made it ten minutes without crashing since the update.  And I've tried leaving MT and going elsewhere - I still crash.

I know that lots of people will say that Lotro has always crashed, and I'm sure that's true - it certainly crashed for me all the time on my Macbook.  But it had never once in two years crashed to desktop for me on this desktop PC until U17.  Not once.  Let me repeat, not once.  Even on my previous PC it never crashed more than once a week or so, and I have more than a year of /played time.....  

They screwed the pooch somewhere with this update, and claiming that it is no different from previous releases is just not an accurate representation of what I am seeing.   

If you don't count me having to force quit after exiting the game because Lotro kept running as long as 5 minutes after exit, then we are in the boat.  Never anything that took me to the desktop or bluescreen.  As stated above my previous PC was a piece of shit. 

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In all fairness to them, when you're handed a steaming pile of spaghetti code, hacks, and shit code written by devs allergic to comments, it's kinda hard to make something uber from that.  At least, that's what I hope has caused a lot of these issues, not them being more incompetent than the last crew.

none of which justifies the premature release of u17

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Well if on release day right below the release noted you state in the known issues that it will crash in a certain area with certain settings then that just screams as being not ready for release.

They know it crashes they know how to reproduce it they pretty sure know what causes it (using too much memory for a 32 bit process) but they still release it.

I understand that fixing that might be tricky but still pushing it out must have been a pretty quick decision as such a bug (I guess it is not even a bug just how their engine works) should be a release blocker.

If they dont know what it is and how to reproduce it and it is rather random I could see it as a non blocker. 

Well at least they were honest and put it right away into the known issues. Doing so is actually impressive.

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the OF is a strange place right now.  apparently, people are crashing outside of minas tirith as well in the enemy encampments and when they do warbands.

even in world chat people are listing their suggestions on how to not crash or experience lag.  most of these suggestions involve totally disabling all in-game sound as well as reducing your graphics to low or very low.

what i find baffling, however, is that some people are fine with ALL of this.  they are so freakishly happy about being in minas tirith and exploring new content in LOTRO, that 8 crashes in an evening is not a big deal to them and are praising Turbine for "a job well done".  i just can't get my head around that.  loco.

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Well if on release day right below the release noted you state in the known issues that it will crash in a certain area with certain settings then that just screams as being not ready for release.

They know it crashes they know how to reproduce it they pretty sure know what causes it (using too much memory for a 32 bit process) but they still release it.

I understand that fixing that might be tricky but still pushing it out must have been a pretty quick decision as such a bug (I guess it is not even a bug just how their engine works) should be a release blocker.

If they dont know what it is and how to reproduce it and it is rather random I could see it as a non blocker. 

Well at least they were honest and put it right away into the known issues. Doing so is actually impressive.

I wouldn't have used the term "impressive".  "Astoundingly arrogant" sounds more like it to me.  As in "We know this is going to be a load of crap, there's no way to sugar-coat it, so let's just go open kimono on this and spell it out right up front.  You're going to be crashing  - a LOT.  We know. Enjoy the update, suckers!"

OK, maybe not that bad, but not good, either.  If I got even a little sense of embarrassment from the devs for releasing U17 in this state, I'd be more sympathetic.

 

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I doubt if the devs responsible for lotro have any influence on the release date. 

Fair point, Thrabath.  You're probably right.  I'm just not willing to give anyone from Turbine/WB a pass on this one, I can't see why waiting a week or two or three was not an option in this case. Unless, as we've been speculating, they have bigger problems to deal with, and a bug- and crash-riddled U17 was the only bone they could throw to the players in the meantime.

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 If I got even a little sense of embarrassment from the devs for releasing U17 in this state, I'd be more sympathetic.

It's interesting to note what has been said - and not said - by blue names (OF dev tracker)  over the course of this week since U17 launch. All mostly just minor and specific comments by QA folks. Amid all this, silence concerning the status quo of fixing crashing issues, silence concerning transfer updates, silence concerning that other Bullroarer testing event that was coming 'soon'.

At this point I think they added that "known issues" section to patch notes (including crashing) precisely because they are not intending to fix this anytime soon, all their priorities being on datacenter drama. Acknowledging these as known issues is stalling for time, and a preemptive measure to have a "right to remain silent" about it. Maybe in December, in a patch that updates the Yule festival, there will be some fixes to this, but with the other hot mess they're in I'd be surprised if anything came earlier.

Some on OF mentioned possibility that WB forced a hand in releasing U17 earlier - I just can't buy this. One, WB pressure would not have arrived at such last moment, and two, even an intern at WB would know that if you want to compete with other games' updates you don't prematurely release a broken crashing beta mess.

Nah, I don't think they're gloating over it. It's so f'ing embarrassing just to watch, I can't even imagine what it must be like to have an active hand in making this happen. Poor Lotro. At this point this whole Turbine thing is like some kind of warped reality show. Sometimes I rail at their incompetence and inability to set things right, sometimes I kinda feel sorry for them for their incompetence and inability to set things right. Only the background laugh track is missing just to make the scenes even more awkward for both characters and viewers.

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Yeah, I don't think they're gloating, that was a bit much on my part.  The word "hapless" comes to mind - like they're just bouncing from one screw-up to another, like Homer Simpson in the skateboarding episode - "D'oh!"ing their way down the cliffs and getting into the ambulance only to have that crash and burn too.

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Some on OF mentioned possibility that WB forced a hand in releasing U17 earlier - I just can't buy this. One, WB pressure would not have arrived at such last moment, and two, even an intern at WB would know that if you want to compete with other games' updates you don't prematurely release a broken crashing beta mess.

 

I don't think it was WB but i think it was a management decision to launch it to get some better numbers to report for October with respect to login numbers and TP spent.

I cannot imagine any of the dev team being happy about this from the EP down to QA.

Someone somewhere mentioned that in last weeks twitch stream it was still mentioned as "being a while until release" or similar?

I didnt see the stream and I cannot remember where I read that, does anyone know?

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I don't think it was WB but i think it was a management decision to launch it to get some better numbers to report for October with respect to login numbers and TP spent.

I cannot imagine any of the dev team being happy about this from the EP down to QA.

Someone somewhere mentioned that in last weeks twitch stream it was still mentioned as "being a while until release" or similar?

I didnt see the stream and I cannot remember where I read that, does anyone know?

It is mentioned in this post:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?580942-What-went-**BOOM**-with-the-stress-test&p=7471021#post7471021

Q: When does Update 17 go live? 
A: Within the next couple of weeks when we nail down a date we will be sure to announce it. We are in heavy polish mode at the moment.

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It's interesting to note what has been said - and not said - by blue names (OF dev tracker)  over the course of this week since U17 launch. All mostly just minor and specific comments by QA folks. Amid all this, silence concerning the status quo of fixing crashing issues, silence concerning transfer updates, silence concerning that other Bullroarer testing event that was coming 'soon'.

At this point I think they added that "known issues" section to patch notes (including crashing) precisely because they are not intending to fix this anytime soon, all their priorities being on datacenter drama. Acknowledging these as known issues is stalling for time, and a preemptive measure to have a "right to remain silent" about it. Maybe in December, in a patch that updates the Yule festival, there will be some fixes to this, but with the other hot mess they're in I'd be surprised if anything came earlier.

Some on OF mentioned possibility that WB forced a hand in releasing U17 earlier - I just can't buy this. One, WB pressure would not have arrived at such last moment, and two, even an intern at WB would know that if you want to compete with other games' updates you don't prematurely release a broken crashing beta mess.

Nah, I don't think they're gloating over it. It's so f'ing embarrassing just to watch, I can't even imagine what it must be like to have an active hand in making this happen. Poor Lotro. At this point this whole Turbine thing is like some kind of warped reality show. Sometimes I rail at their incompetence and inability to set things right, sometimes I kinda feel sorry for them for their incompetence and inability to set things right. Only the background laugh track is missing just to make the scenes even more awkward for both characters and viewers.

You guys are giving WB way too much credit.  When WB bought Turbine they had zero interest in Lotro, DDO or AC as individual games.  They bought Turbine for their "expertise making on line games".  The dearly departed Aylwen told us this.  If anything it's the new projects that have taken away from those original games, some of those projects that had millions scrapped on them and they were abandon.  And just when you thought Lotro might get some attention via the closure of Infite Crisis, they start another mobile project. 

They think they are a mini Blizzard.  But in reality they are no where close.  But Blizzard is also doing this.  Most of the staff (the ones that made the game halfway decent)  have been moved to their other projects.  Overwatch, Hearthstone, Titan (before it was canceled) etc.  Now World of Warcraft is getting the same treatment Lotro does.  Except they still get good raids and the replacement staff isn't screwing it up too bad.  And they actually have a decent sized staff. 

WB doesn't give a fuck about Lotro period.

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Now World of Warcraft is getting the same treatment Lotro does. 

Not true.

New content is made very well in WoW, the staff working on it are very skilled, and content is well tested and polished before release. Blizzard treats WoW nothing like Lotro. WoW is still very profitable - in part because it is so well made.

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"I'm not trying to offend anyone.  I think players have perfectly legit reasons to be bitter toward Turbine."  If you're going to quote me, read what I [expletive deleted] write.

Don't curse at me, whelp.

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the LotR IP is what made everybody give a fuck about this game in the first place

Exactly, the IP is the only unique characteristic of the game.  Without that it would have another cookie cutter mmo that would have died a long time ago.

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Maybe in December, in a patch that updates the Yule festival, there will be some fixes to this, but with the other hot mess they're in I'd be surprised if anything came earlier.

I'll take back my own words:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=7473224#post7473224 

Oh, that was me.

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