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Update 17 - What is it?


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It's just bad writing, more than anything.

I would agree with this.  I've never thought Turbine has been much better than 'uninspired' in the writing dept, often dropping down to 'dreadful' levels.  I guess my expectations are low enough in this regard.  But, we've never been all that "heroic" anyway.  We've always killed boars, and delivered mail and pies, and stuff like that.  Why suddenly are we supposed to be the main protagonist in LOTR?  We were always supposed to be adjacent to the heroes.  We don't always need to be the stars of the show.  I blame millennial parenting. 

What I object to is the criticism that "OMGERD that GD Turbine is making me talk to a guy, go do something in the world they created, talk to the guy AGAIN and go do something AGAIN.  I'm far to busy for that, my life is too full, and this ninth Doritos Locos Taco isn't going to eat itself."   

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Oh!, I get it... you're rping a self-important douche.  Great job! you really got in touch with the character.

I guess if you eat shit long enough you acquire a taste for it.

Eh? I've been invoked, so I appear. (This forum is still the best source of actual information about updates so I've been lurking). My assessment of Minas Tirith is similar to Warspeech's. I'll add my

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I would agree with this.  I've never thought Turbine has been much better than 'uninspired' in the writing dept, often dropping down to 'dreadful' levels.  I guess my expectations are low enough in this regard.  But, we've never been all that "heroic" anyway.  We've always killed boars, and delivered mail and pies, and stuff like that.  Why suddenly are we supposed to be the main protagonist in LOTR?  We were always supposed to be adjacent to the heroes.  We don't always need to be the stars of the show.  I blame millennial parenting. 

What I object to is the criticism that "OMGERD that GD Turbine is making me talk to a guy, go do something in the world they created, talk to the guy AGAIN and go do something AGAIN.  I'm far to busy for that, my life is too full, and this ninth Doritos Locos Taco isn't going to eat itself."   

But surely the expectation is that you progress? When you first start working in the office you are expected to the make the tea and coffee for everyone, and do odd jobs and errands as you are new to the job. Five years down the line, no you don't do these menial tasks any more, as you are senior and of better use doing other more skilled work.

Surely after everything our character's have been through, how much they've grown, they should no longer be doing these menial tasks? Why would they need someone of our skill to clean up? I think the whole dissatisfaction with these quests is that our characters are not using their skills. We are these amazingly experienced warriors and we get asked to do something a child could do. We haven't progressed from SOA days. Our experience means nothing.

I call it lazy writing with no context. If they actually thought about the quests, they could give use better and more appropriate to our status, things to do.

We're personal friends of Aragorn and Gandalf. We're finally at Minas Tirith about to fight in battle at Pelennor and we're running around fetching things for children? It's terrible writing. We should be doing important work, even if we are only side characters we still are extremely experienced fighters.

 

 

Edited by Mallorn
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But surely the expectation is that you progress? When you first start working in the office you are expected to the make the tea and coffee for everyone, and do odd jobs and errands as you are new to the job. Five years down the line, no you don't do these menial tasks any more, as you are senior and of better use doing other more skilled work.

Surely after everything our character's have been through, how much they've grown, they should no longer be doing these menial tasks? Why would they need someone of our skill to clean up? I think the whole dissatisfaction with these quests is that our characters are not using their skills. We are these amazingly experienced warriors and we get asked to do something a child could do. We haven't progressed from SOA days. Our experience means nothing.

I call it lazy writing with no context. If they actually thought about the quests, they could give use better and more appropriate to our status, things to do.

We're personal friends of Aragorn and Gandalf. We're finally at Minas Tirith about to fight in battle at Pelennor and we're running around fetching things for children? It's terrible writing. We should be doing important work, even if we are only side characters we still are extremely experienced fighters.

 

 

No, I've never understood this need for progression.  I've always played lotro for two reasons, to see Middle Earth and to have fun.  It never occurred to me to seek out a video game for a sense of accomplishment.  Maybe I'm just out of touch.

OTOH, if you want to talk about being a "hero" means only doing "important" work, look at soldiers, they do menial tasks all the time.  They clean latrines, they direct traffic, they cook...  Police officers fill out paperwork.  Fire Fighters wash the trucks.  Cowboys repaired fences.  Since when are heroes always only making the big stand?

Friends with Gandalf?  So was half the Shire, and they did plenty of non-heroic things every day.   

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No, I've never understood this need for progression.  I've always played lotro for two reasons, to see Middle Earth and to have fun.  It never occurred to me to seek out a video game for a sense of accomplishment.  Maybe I'm just out of touch.

OTOH, if you want to talk about being a "hero" means only doing "important" work, look at soldiers, they do menial tasks all the time.  They clean latrines, they direct traffic, they cook...  Police officers fill out paperwork.  Fire Fighters wash the trucks.  Cowboys repaired fences.  Since when are heroes always only making the big stand?

Friends with Gandalf?  So was half the Shire, and they did plenty of non-heroic things every day.   

It's a video game and part of that is doing things we can't do in real life, like slay orcs.  I don't know why you have issue with people wanting to feel more heroic in a video game.  I suppose I could google "Mundane Task Simulator" and perhaps someone created a game based on washing a truck, repairing fences, directing traffic, cooking and cleaning latrines.  It is true that "heroes" often do things that are not heroic, but this isn't real life this is a fantasy world.  What good is fantasy if it's not fantastic?  When I log in I don't want to be reminded of what it was like when I first started out at some company and played the office bitch.

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It is true that "heroes" often do things that are not heroic, but this isn't real life this is a fantasy world.  What good is fantasy if it's not fantastic?

Do you watch an action movie and only want there to be action scenes?

Edited by Snowlock
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Do you watch an action movie and only want there to be action scenes?

Story sure helps but at I also don't want to watch an action movie where the lead character delivers pizza most of the time, unless of course he's a pizza delivering ninja. 

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It's one thing for them to say, "You must get this message to so and so!" and send you on your way to get the message there. It's something completely different for them to say, "Go ask that guy 20' away if it's Tuesday" then have that guy tell you, "Tell him yes" ans back and forth a couple times.

While I agree that doing non-heroic things is ok and actually fit's the theme of the Books, it is a game also and passing messages between two people 20' away to find out you've been elected to fill the waterskin doesn't play well for many people.

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It's one thing for them to say, "You must get this message to so and so!" and send you on your way to get the message there. It's something completely different for them to say, "Go ask that guy 20' away if it's Tuesday" then have that guy tell you, "Tell him yes" ans back and forth a couple times.

While I agree that doing non-heroic things is ok and actually fit's the theme of the Books, it is a game also and passing messages between two people 20' away to find out you've been elected to fill the waterskin doesn't play well for many people.

You mean like the hobbit lad and lass who were madly in love with each other but couldn't agree on a dog?  Yeah that always irritated me to no end because they could see each other from their doors.

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Sorry guys, I just don't see it.  It's an MMO, not an FPS.  And an MMO has always had an immersion piece to it, and I think it should.  There's no point in creating a vast world just to have your character port from place to place killing things exclusively.  I find the quest lines in MT rather boring, but I was also cognizant of the fact that Turbine was guiding us through MT so we could learn it.  Learn the city, through repetition.  It seems perfectly fine to me that they did it, and I expected them to do it and I think they were right to do it.

I don't respect this viewpoint that our characters are "beneath" something.  I think it's stupid, full stop.  You want to argue that the story could've been better, I've already conceded that point to Doro without hesitation, but bitching about the nature of the quest or what you're too good for, maybe you should play a different kind of game entirely.

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Do you watch an action movie and only want there to be action scenes?

I think we can all agree that Transformers sucked balls for trying to shoehorn a human life plot into it, Spider-man wasted too much time showing Peter Parker being a boring person, and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince deviated so much into a generic teen rom com that nobody cared who's potions book it was.

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Sorry guys, I just don't see it.  It's an MMO, not an FPS.  And an MMO has always had an immersion piece to it, and I think it should.  There's no point in creating a vast world just to have your character port from place to place killing things exclusively.  I find the quest lines in MT rather boring, but I was also cognizant of the fact that Turbine was guiding us through MT so we could learn it.  Learn the city, through repetition.  It seems perfectly fine to me that they did it, and I expected them to do it and I think they were right to do it.

I don't respect this viewpoint that our characters are "beneath" something.  I think it's stupid, full stop.  You want to argue that the story could've been better, I've already conceded that point to Doro without hesitation, but bitching about the nature of the quest or what you're too good for, maybe you should play a different kind of game entirely.

I didn't need to find a different type of game, just a different mmo. 

In TSW I have quests that have me sneak through traps and past mobs, no combat, the traps and mobs are designed to kill you if you get caught, missions that require me to do research on the internet or other places. missions that are lore driven, and even mundane missions like go find this guy or go dig up that thing.

What I don't have is missions that say go talk to that guy 10 steps away then come back and tell me what he said 4x before I find out I'm the guy that has to grab a shovel and dig up some something.

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Sorry guys, I just don't see it.  It's an MMO, not an FPS.  And an MMO has always had an immersion piece to it, and I think it should.  There's no point in creating a vast world just to have your character port from place to place killing things exclusively.  I find the quest lines in MT rather boring, but I was also cognizant of the fact that Turbine was guiding us through MT so we could learn it.  Learn the city, through repetition.  It seems perfectly fine to me that they did it, and I expected them to do it and I think they were right to do it.

I don't respect this viewpoint that our characters are "beneath" something.  I think it's stupid, full stop.  You want to argue that the story could've been better, I've already conceded that point to Doro without hesitation, but bitching about the nature of the quest or what you're too good for, maybe you should play a different kind of game entirely.

for me, it's my experience with other games like FFXIV that make me cringe when i play LOTRO especially when it comes to story lines and questing.  the point here is, Snow, the quests in MT don't have to be boring.  you're content with them being that way, because you're used to it from Turbine.  did you ever think that after all this time, folks are just finally fed up and want more, hence the mounting frustration on the forum (add to that, the crashes and the lag)?

and gods forbid we actually explore the city and learn about it that way instead of having some mundane quest take us to specific locations.

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I don't respect this viewpoint that our characters are "beneath" something.  I think it's stupid, full stop.  You want to argue that the story could've been better, I've already conceded that point to Doro without hesitation, but bitching about the nature of the quest or what you're too good for, maybe you should play a different kind of game entirely.

I'm fairly certain that's the same point being made, though. Better writing wouldn't have characters doing mundane chores for randoms. It's just not in keeping with the sorts of deeds the characters have performed before.

Imagine you've got a guy out there who's created a vaccine for HIV, won World's Strongest Man, placed first in every marathon, knocked out the greatest boxer, been able to bring peace to the Middle-east... and then some random prick asks him to take a black bag of crap over to the dumpster down the road. Oh, and when he's done, he has to come back to deliver a message to someone else near the dumpster (that message being to tell the guy he left a load of hair in the plug hole again) but he can't do it all at once. No, he has to make the trip twice, because of reasons. It just doesn't add up for the sort of level of person being dealt with.

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Imagine you've got a guy out there who's created a vaccine for HIV, won World's Strongest Man, placed first in every marathon, knocked out the greatest boxer, been able to bring peace to the Middle-east... and then some random prick asks him to take a black bag of crap over to the dumpster down the road.

But you're not.  You're just a guy sitting at your computer playing a video game, a video game that has required you to handle bags of crap since you started playing it, and required it consistently throughout.  I don't and never have self-identified through a computer avatar.  I cannot fathom this line of reason.

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Sorry guys, I just don't see it.  It's an MMO, not an FPS.  And an MMO has always had an immersion piece to it, and I think it should.  There's no point in creating a vast world just to have your character port from place to place killing things exclusively.  I find the quest lines in MT rather boring, but I was also cognizant of the fact that Turbine was guiding us through MT so we could learn it.  Learn the city, through repetition.  It seems perfectly fine to me that they did it, and I expected them to do it and I think they were right to do it.

I don't respect this viewpoint that our characters are "beneath" something.  I think it's stupid, full stop.  You want to argue that the story could've been better, I've already conceded that point to Doro without hesitation, but bitching about the nature of the quest or what you're too good for, maybe you should play a different kind of game entirely.

Yeah and I've played enough of them to know that what was given in this particular chain is bad quest flow and becomes boring fast.  

I've played a WOW toon from 1-80 and 90-100, a Rift toon from 1-65, a Neverwinter toon from 1-20, a SWTOR toon from 1-20 and a Lotro toon from 1-95 and at 100.  Lotro is the only game I have seen questlines like this.  Woodhurst was the first time it became real glaring.  The forlong guy is just a continuation of that tradition.  Sure Galtrev had these same kinds of quests.  But they were in moderation. 

The other games had talk quests no question about that but they were to direct you to new quest hubs rather than directing you to more talk and click quests. 

THIS IS WHY THEY WERE GIVEN THE NAME QUEST.  Otherwise we would call them book pages, movie scenes or remedial tasks. 

for me, it's my experience with other games like FFXIV that make me cringe when i play LOTRO especially when it comes to story lines and questing.  the point here is, Snow, the quests in MT don't have to be boring.  you're content with them being that way, because you're used to it from Turbine.  did you ever think that after all this time, folks are just finally fed up and want more, hence the mounting frustration on the forum (add to that, the crashes and the lag)?

and gods forbid we actually explore the city and learn about it that way instead of having some mundane quest take us to specific locations.

Nicely worded.  Dead on.  This is precisely the reason why my nephew abandon his account. 

But it's not that they are running out of ideas.  They have freely stolen ideas from other MMO's in the past.  They don't have the talent left to execute those stolen ideas.  With the staff they have working on it there's no way they can compete with any other MMO, even the other free ones.  Not because they don't have the money to do so, they just spend that money on other shit nobody ends up playing.  They have had enough players buy into this shitty quest design that they feel they can keep squirting it out with little effort.  They have a few players fooled.   The ones that aren't will be hitting their own breaking point soon enough. 

I'm sure if they had raids and progression dungeons like other proper MMO's most wouldn't care about the quest design, but this is clearly what they are focused on as main content.  A poor showing if you ask me.  Meanwhile the art department continues to do their job.  They must not be getting paid that much lol.

But you're not.  You're just a guy sitting at your computer playing a video game, a video game that has required you to handle bags of crap since you started playing it, and required it consistently throughout.  I don't and never have self-identified through a computer avatar.  I cannot fathom this line of reason.

Really because I never really felt this way about any quests in Lotro until Helm's Deep.  To say I have played this game extensively is an understatement.  I can't think of a quest chain I have not completed on at least 1 of 12 toons.  Before I quit during Fangorn of course.

You can argue all you want but honestly we aren't flaming it because Turbine made the content , it is just that bad.

Edited by Thequinn
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...

It would be very welcome to have that acknowledgement, as we have a habit of helping out Middle-earth.

Well in Minas Tirith, at this point, remember you're a friend of some ragged mongrel upstart wanna-be king and his pointy hatted puppet-master. 

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did you ever think that after all this time, folks are just finally fed up and want more

Yes, and it's perfectly reasonable.  But LOTRO is what it is, and whenever they try to make it something it's not, it fails horribly.  Whenever the borrow from others, whether is comms from SWTOR, or Gated Raiding from WOW, it fails, miserably and spectacularly.  WHere I'm finally getting to is kinda this hardline "If you don't want LOTRO, then don't play LOTRO" stance because all of the twisting and turning to bend to feedback that Turbine has done over the years has just given us a big fat shit sandwich. 

I've played a WOW toon from 1-80 and 90-100, a Rift toon from 1-65, a Neverwinter toon from 1-20, a SWTOR toon from 1-20 and a Lotro toon from 1-95 and at 100.  Lotro is the only game I have seen questlines like this.  Woodhurst was the first time it became real glaring.  The forlong guy is just a continuation of that tradition.  Sure Galtrev had these same kinds of quests.  But they were in moderation. 

Oh come on.  Saeradan.  SOA was so filled with far worse than this.

It would be very welcome to have that acknowledgement, as we have a habit of helping out Middle-earth.

 

WHy?  Aragorn helped out more than you ever did, and he kept on taking alias's.

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You did it all throughout.  you cleaned tables in Isengard.  You ran mail in Eriador.  You picked flowers in LOth and Mirkwood.  You prepared feasts in Rohan.  You just don't want to do it anymore.  Whatevs, but you make it seem like suddenly Turbine is doing this and they've done it from the jump.  It's an alternate type of questing than combat.  It gives us that immersion, even if it isn't all that fun.  It makes us remember the places we were at.  And when they get rid of it, the game is less for it.  I'm glad you like Final Fantasy.  Why does LOTRO have to be Final Fantasy?  Why can't LOTRO just be LOTRO?

 

 

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And that makes them any less valid?

It does.  It makes them exactly less valid.  If your premise is that Turbine has hit a new low, you don't use old criticism to identify something new.  It's like saying America is more racist now because there was segregation in the 60's.  So if your logic isn't logical then it's not valid.  Or something.  I'm not used to this role of defender of Turbine.

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Answer this question:

When was the last time LotRO actually made you feel like you gave a damn about a NPC character?

Failure to answer this question means you have never really been trying to have a conversation on this, and have consigned me to be wrong regardless what I may (or may not) be saying.

Never.  Nor has any other video game for that matter though.

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That's the problem.

Until you have experienced that in a video game, you'll never understand why so many of us are railing on the writing in LotRO, as we must be as invested in the LotRO NPCs as we would be a character in a character driven TV show or novel, or we're not going to be willing to tolerate the minutia.

That's also what I realized was going on, and why I cut this short.

No, I don't think so.  The reason I've not felt that way toward npc's is because of the interactions with players instead.  Maybe this argument is happening because of the solo nature of the games these days, as opposed to when you would get that kind of interaction you describe from kinmates and enemies and allies in game, actual real people.  My bio to this day says "Killer of Thorog, Thaurlach, the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur and the Watcher In The Water. Conquerer of the Evils of Dar Nargbugud and Ost Dunoth and desteroyer of the Rings of Saruman.  Captain General of the Ettenmoors,  Warlord.  Foe of the nine.  Ally of the Fellowship.  Delver of the Moria Deeps.  Defender of Eriador, Rohan and Gondor.  Invader of Fornost, Angmar and Dol Guldur.  Kindred of the Dunedain.  IRON RANGER.  No relegated to picking berries in Loth.  Oh how the mighty have fallen."

So it's not like I'm a fan of this type of questing, its just that I'm not taking it so personally I guess.

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