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TTIP partially leaked (secret government treaty)


Darmokk
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Greenpeace got their hands on about half of the trans-atlantic part of secret trade agreements. They are releasing it for download so that you can read for yourself.

For many in Europe the hot issue is how to deal with potentially harmful food and farming issues, where the US is simply dictating their ideas on everybody else.

However, for me the more important part (already eating shitty US food) is that many of the IMHO unreasonable ideas about intellectual property rights are also enforced on other countries. This includes (from previous leaks) a requirement that those other countries have to prosecute "pirates" in their country even if the copyright holder does not wish prosecution.  After what happened here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz I really don't want that.  Copyright violations are worse than physical harm all over this agreement.

http://www.ttip-leaks.org/

I am reading the actual text as I can.

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I hope TTIP will be clearly rejected or it will make the EU collapse.

I'm almost hoping the PVV will become the largest party by a huge margin in the Netherlands, just because the normal parties in the Netherlands are so ignorant about what the people want on so many areas. The only 2 issues with the PVV is their position on muslims/immigrants which in my eyes is despicable and the fact that they don't give solutions, but it would be a good lesson for the 'normal' political parties.

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Sadly in a first pass I did not see the copyright and other intellectual property antics. Might be in the other half not yet leaked.

Merkel wants to pass it real quick now. Must be in deep trouble.

Double sadly I actually like a majority of clauses that I do see. But if I can't have it without the IP nonsense dictated to the world by Senator Disney in the good ol US of A, then screw it.

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You're missing the point IMHO.

I once translated hundreds of EU Accession documents into Polish (when Poland wanted to join EU). 

Trust me - 80% of the stuff was about "the free movement of good and services" and assorted capitalist shit.

The results of joining the EU were much more than that, (and positive).

So, while those parts TTIP sure sound shitty-shady, the general idea of a giant trans-Atlantic community is appealing. *

So far we sure have under-the-table anti-consumer skulduggery though. :(:(

 

 

 

 

* (sauf the free-flow of merican rotting food of course, and Saul-like IP law-suits galore).

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8 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

8 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

8 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

8 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

8 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

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On 5.05.2016 at 11:56 PM, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

On 5.05.2016 at 11:56 PM, FundinStrongarm said:

What's the issue with American food and farming that people seem to be upset about? Curious Canuck here.

 

 It's cheaper (more efficient) than in EU, because of;

Lack of veterinary restraints, use of antibiotics, GMO, industrial scale and pollution, lack of control of food safety and quality, general "laissez faire" approach (all is allowed by default, only if proven toxic  taken from market, while in EU "the permit comes first").

The problem is not only that this shit would be imported, but it would become produced "on the spot" here, with disastrous consequences for people and environment.  

I'm not saying that raising a couple of pigs in one's backyard is very hygienic or profitable, but an American style industrial pig-farm is an eco-disaster. Exaggerating to point out the differences.  

  

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TTIP is much more than food.   Food actually(while important) is actually least important.

TTIP what it will do it will alter (especially for EU) relations between goverment, society (including small&medium firms) and big business and how further relations between those parties will be created in future.  

It will eventually change our reality in a big way.   

 

Only good thing about it - from my point of view - is that it will anchor geopolitical and thus military USA presence in Europe and both USA and Europe still needs that (for diffrent reasons but still) transatlantic geopolitical&miitary presence.

Anything other than that brought by TTIP including economy, society and law is huge negative.

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Well, the Germans in particular are mainly concerned about the reversal of food safety proof.

Myself I am much more antsy about the copyright enforcement clauses, which bring crazy instances of US law and punishment onto countries that still do odd things like jail violent criminals longer than freeloaders.

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6 hours ago, drul said:

TTIP is much more than food.   Food actually(while important) is actually least important.

TTIP what it will do it will alter (especially for EU) relations between goverment, society (including small&medium firms) and big business and how further relations between those parties will be created in future.  

It will eventually change our reality in a big way.   

 

Only good thing about it - from my point of view - is that it will anchor geopolitical and thus military USA presence in Europe and both USA and Europe still needs that (for diffrent reasons but still) transatlantic geopolitical&miitary presence.

Anything other than that brought by TTIP including economy, society and law is huge negative.

What are these negative consequences between government, society and business? Will government have less control of people's lives or more?

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5 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

None, business will get more control, gov and people less - at least, that's the main problem if I understand the opponents correctly

In what way will business have more control of people's lives?

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9 hours ago, Thrabath said:

Those 'secret' courts that where businesses can demand compensation from countries/govs. Though the initial leaked plan is removed, itmade sure a lot of people distrust ttip

Ah, so it's not that they have more control of people's lives it's that the government has less control over businesses then?

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Can't decide whether you are dumb or a troll, Fundin.

You like secret courts?

 

Regardless of whether you are on the more government or less government side, secret courts can't be what you want to keep an eye on reality, right?

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Not a fan of secret courts. Also, not a fan of government control either. I find too much of "business will have more control of people's lives" talk is really "I want the government to have more control of people's lives".

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2 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Not a fan of secret courts. Also, not a fan of government control either. I find too much of "business will have more control of people's lives" talk is really "I want the government to have more control of people's lives".

Just wondering how any of the stuff in those contracts supports either of those goals, in your opinion?

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What parts are you concerned about? Specifically? I understand some of the copyright issues you have. What else? I do respect copyright but don't think it should be endless.

I think people should be free to trade with those around the block or around the world if they wish to do so. Government tariffs, taxes, quotas or controls hinder that freedom. The more government makes rules that are more complex, the more insiders set those rules to favour themselves. I guess some people think some of these trade agreements are just that, I suppose - complex arcane secret deals favouring some over others. However, some of the impediments to people being free to trade with each other need to be removed, imo. I'm in agreement with removing them somehow. I like disruptors like Uber and airbnb that circumvent useless regulations. I'd be agreeable with a 1 page trade agreement that just said that all impediments to trade are removed.

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45 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

From the US, what you aren't getting about the fair trade acts is that it's really about exporting jobs from the US, as each one weakens the US economically.

As far as the food goes, most of the mass food isn't all that great, mostly because it's too heavily over-processed and loses a lot of flavor due to the over-processing.

But the allowed amount of treatment is much larger in the U.S., and the required safety tests before allowed to market something are drastically different. The aggreement as written now simply enforces American (non-)standards all over the combined zone. The major reasons why some Europeans are upset at that is that those who experienced both know that processed American food is significantly more awful than Euro processed food. They don't want to lose the protection from required testing that they fought for for so long.

Copyright - can't comment before those sections leak. It is supposed to be ridiculous, forcing all countries in the treaty do do what Americans do on behalf of "Senator Disney", which is that copyright crimes are pursued and punished harder than many violent crimes.

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I wanna see the Euros have Corn Sirup in everything! At about 30+% by weight.

The food industry in the US can be described as Mafia like.  They have congress in pocket and now they want the US to bring those same things to Europe. 

I don't think I'm in favor of this.

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On 15/05/2016 at 11:56 PM, FundinStrongarm said:

Not a fan of secret courts. Also, not a fan of government control either. I find too much of "business will have more control of people's lives" talk is really "I want the government to have more control of people's lives".

Well, do you really think businesses are benevolent? Would you really trust them to put the interest of people before profit? Businesses in the past have used slave labour and payed their 'free' staff a pittance; used children to crawl under dangerous operating machines where they could and did often lose limbs or even die. They've poisoned water supplies. They've sexually harassed their staff. They've bullied. They've knowingly put their staff in extremely dangerous situations. They've released products that have killed people. Falsely advertised goods. They've colluded to ensure they can charge extortionate prices. All because there were no laws in place to stop that kind of behaviour.

Does anyone really want a return to those days? 

I find anti-government interference arguments weird because the proponents of them are usually fiercely republican. Yet what they are essentially arguing is for all power to be put into the hands of the mega rich, which is essentially what the monarchy and feudalism was. 

People are greedy and selfish. Less government interference would only ever benefit the rich. If you are a true believer in freedom, you know we have to have a government and strong, enforced rules. As Rousseau basically said; without rules, anyone physically stronger than you or richer can take away your freedom at any time because they are more powerful. 

I'd argue the problem with government is that they are influenced too much by corporations and the rich.

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EFF has a bit more detail on IP.  Apparently the reason why these chapters haven't been leaked yet is that they haven't been written in this context yet.  That makes me even more eager to demand that IP issues are not made part of this secret deal.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/01/europe-releases-its-ttip-proposals-intellectual-property

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On 17/05/2016 at 8:07 PM, Almagnus1 said:

And this shows your ignorance about what's actually going on.

A lot of the EPA regulations was pushed through BY the larger corporations, which completely wrecked a lot of Colorado mining operations, which in turn forced out a lot of the smaller players.

Essentially, the larger corporations have the ability to take the hit for the paperwork involved, but the paperwork involved with getting the permits gets so convoluted and so much of a load that the smaller corporations - which didn't have that much of a profit margin to begin with, get forced out of business.

Yes, we need some laws to stop the really stupid stuff, but not at the expense of the small and medium sized businesses.

How does it show my ignorance? My last comment said that the problem is that governments are too influenced by corporations and the rich which is what your example shows.

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