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On 19.10.2016 at 1:11 AM, Amorey said:

Shooting at the wrong target , your beef may be with Turbine or with whoever works or worked for them, The state of the game is NOT my fault

If You, and by that I mean all that employ the afore- and aft-mentioned tactics of stifling criticism, STILL don't see that it directly translated into the state of the game and, therefore, IS Your fault, then that would really be astonishing. As such, I am with the others, claiming "not intentional" is hilarious.

SNy

18 hours ago, Thequinn said:

And here's an example of what the new thread's OP will look like:

Title: What's with all the whining?

Poster will spend a paragraph with their nose up the developers butt about how much work they are doing and what a great job the development team is doing.  Then the next paragraph will be them not understanding how "some folks" are just never satisfied no matter how hard you try to please them.  Depending on the X the fanboy may or may not mention it but will claim to be sick and tired of the whiners.

Indeed, and those threads have been done to death back then. Bonus points for those threads: poster answers (ref TDoCE) valid concerns with completely irrelevant and commonly agreed upon descriptions of well-done portions, like for instance how much fun can be had by replaying 6 year old zones, ignoring glaringly obvious flaws that crept up over the period of the more recent months/years and claiming all is well, obviously.

Edit: Haha! Case in point.

SNy

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5 hours ago, Doro said:

Right, let's break this down, then. If it's a name and it annoys someone, then yeah it should be dealt with. But if it's someone being snide and it annoys someone, then it's the fault of the annoyed person and they should just accept it? Both break the rules, but only one is apparently unacceptable.

There's no need to respond with insults. If you really really can't ignore, respond in a level-headed manner. Petty name-calling is a violation on many forums. Telling you to quit playing(/doing XX) isn't.

That being said, if that poster responded to every criticism with "quit playing" (or whatever) that constantly took threads off-track, a mod should look at that poster and eventually issue infractions.

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2 minutes ago, FundinStrongarm said:

There's no need to respond with insults. If you really really can't ignore, respond in a level-headed manner. Petty name-calling is a violation on many forums. Telling you to quit playing(/doing XX) isn't.

That being said, if that poster responded to every criticism with "quit playing" (or whatever) that constantly took threads off-track, a mod should look at that poster and eventually issue infractions.

The issue is with unbalanced moderation and the frustration it can cause. When people do make those passive-aggressive comments repeatedly and without any moderation to it (despite it being against the rules under "baiting", which the second post example was), it's going to rile people up (because we're human, and disrespect towards us often creates a reaction). But even if you respond, even like for like, you'd be hit for it. The only options being get an infraction or submit to role of doormat.

Which is where Cordovan seems blissfully unaware in his role. He's missing the examples of fanboys breaking the rules, while others are hit fairly constantly when dealing with those same fanboys.

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1 hour ago, FundinStrongarm said:

There's no need to respond with insults. If you really really can't ignore, respond in a level-headed manner. Petty name-calling is a violation on many forums. Telling you to quit playing(/doing XX) isn't.

That being said, if that poster responded to every criticism with "quit playing" (or whatever) that constantly took threads off-track, a mod should look at that poster and eventually issue infractions.

Ok, so let's take this back to where the conversation started a few pages back, where Cordovan writes this:

Quote

The old schoolyard defense of, "but he/she IS a _____!!!" doesn't work. If someone is calling someone else a _____, and it's an insult, it's not up to me to determine whether the insult is warranted. Don't do insults. It also almost always lessens your argument, and makes you seem less intelligent. Debate the topic, not the person. If you can't handle someone else's personality, no one's requiring you to interact with them. 

He clearly states 'debate the topic, not the person'. This is what the fanboys are not doing: debating the topic. Very often I read 'quit playing' while these posters do not acknowledge that there is an issue with X. I actually see that way too often.  I think this should be stopped by the/a mod. To me the 'quit playing' response is annoying because it ends the thread right then and there. And yes, in a way, I find this repetition of 'quit playing' insulting to those who put their effort in wanting to discuss and improve, who express a genuine concern out of their attachment to the game. They don't want to quit, and many don't, despite not being heard and despite not seeing the improvements so many ask for. This not quitting, however, should not be translated by Turbine as 'all is well', as the PAIZ' explanation was.

The suggestion 'people not responding to posts they can easily ignore' works very well for both sides: a. the posters who point out stuff in game that they want improved/changed etc. and b. the posters that will respond to that with 'there is nothing wrong' and 'just quit playing'. But the latter will not take this advice. By not being 'admonished' by the CM, they are actually encouraged to keep posting 'quit playing'.

I want to add that the stance of the CM is not helpful in this at all, because at the same time there is no confirmation of/support for those who experience larger or smaller parts of the game as annoying and are asking for improvements. (I find that we actually get more and more grind, still have lag etc (it was horrible traveling from Hobbitton to the Party Tree last night with all the horses galloping in place). This is why this thread also started off on the wrong footing, in my opinion, because content was excluded from this discussion by the OP. I think, with the posts here, from the last week, we finally are starting to see what is wrong with 'the community' as in 'forum community'. It's ridiculous that this can't be discussed on the OF but is done here. (Doesn't that in itself show how out of balance the OF are?)

I also want to add that I take 'quit playing' as some sort of 'debate..... the person', because these posters are telling other players what to do and assign the latter's frustrations to the box 'go away, so we don't have to think about what you just wrote - by telling you to quit we make you look stupid as an actual attempt to shut up'. The suggestion that those who express their frustration/suggestions/etc. should take some sort of 'higher road' towards the fanboys allows the CM to continue doing what he is doing (and not doing). I hope Cordovan comes back and looks at the posts here without his corporate (when we leave you in the dark you can make out of everything we didn't write whatever you want and we will still prove you wrong) goggles on. Clarity is what is needed on the OF.

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

The issue is with unbalanced moderation and the frustration it can cause. When people do make those passive-aggressive comments repeatedly and without any moderation to it (despite it being against the rules under "baiting", which the second post example was), it's going to rile people up (because we're human, and disrespect towards us often creates a reaction). But even if you respond, even like for like, you'd be hit for it. The only options being get an infraction or submit to role of doormat.

Which is where Cordovan seems blissfully unaware in his role. He's missing the examples of fanboys breaking the rules, while others are hit fairly constantly when dealing with those same fanboys.

There's no need to respond to like with like though. Take the high road. Most will respect you for it and not think you're a doormat, honest.

Also, make use of the Report feature if you think comments are baiting or deserve moderation.

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33 minutes ago, FundinStrongarm said:

There's no need to respond to like with like though. Take the high road. Most will respect you for it and not think you're a doormat, honest.

Also, make use of the Report feature if you think comments are baiting or deserve moderation.

This is where we fundamentally disagree, then. I can't sit and accept that sort of stuff. It isn't the "high road" for me, it's not even a road. Nor do I see a difference between passive-aggressive comments and outright insults, when both are against the rules. If anything, I think direct insults are more tolerable, because at least they've been upfront about it, instead of snide.

But we're back to the issue of moderation not being handled evenly. Even if these posts are reported for breaking the rules, there's a high chance they won't ever get pulled up on it. It doesn't fix anything to just let the fanboys run around breaking rules but everyone else has to just accept it. Cordovan needs to fix the bias first, if he really wants to fix anything.

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Many times it is the Report feature that alerts mods to a problem. If you don't use it then there's a higher likelihood nothing will be done about it.

Yes, moderation should be handled evenly. It still doesn't mean you need to stoop to like for like or insults though.

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

1- This is where we fundamentally disagree, then. . 

2 -Nor do I see a difference between passive-aggressive comments and outright insults, when both are against the rules.

 

 

 

1 - We do. :):):)

2 - It's simple. Like the difference berween calling you names, and breaking your jaw.

Both against the rules, but a constant "charge the enemy that dishonored me" reaction to the first is immature. 

 

But to my surprise, much as I disagree with Doro's compulsion to fight imbecility online, I'm starting to see some merit to his arguments here. I mean... He's still wrong, stooping etc, but... 

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2 hours ago, Jedy2 said:

1 - It's simple. Like the difference berween calling you names, and breaking your jaw.

2 - Both against the rules, but a constant "charge the enemy that dishonored me" reaction to the first is immature. 

1 - Yeah... I'm not sure you can equate words with physical assault.

2 - Immature, according to you. Everyone has a different view on what constitutes mature behaviour. I don't find getting drunk to be very mature, but a lot of people do.

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7 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Then that's on you and not anything the mod needs to worry about. If you have a next level response that slings insults expect the mods to hand you an infraction.

I disagree with you. Breaking the rules is still breaking the rules. Some posters deliberately goad and insult others in a passive aggressive way that based on the words themselves in isolation is not overtly breaking the rules or offering insult. However viewing all the words together with a proper understanding of the tone and intention of the writer, it is quite clear that the words are bating, insulting, patronising, sarcastic, rude etc.

We've all met these kind of people in real life who employ the same tactics, overtly appearing to be a nice person and appearing as such to people who do not know them. Yet those who do, know exactly that they are in fact being snide, arrogant,  insincere and insulting. 

In English, you have to take into account the tone of the speaker and their often veiled intention, as this changes a word or phrase's meaning completely. English isn't as simple as just viewing the semantics of the words and the moderation of a forum should take this in to account.

I'd argue that this kind of baiting riles people up more than the overt name calling and it is hard for many people to ignore it when it goes on and on and on, with the same posters responding to you in this manner all the time.

 

You mention reporting. The problem is, when these kinds of posts are responded with like-for-like ie. no overt name calling or insults, the instigator is never rebuked by the biased mods but the responder is.

Reporting is useless when the entire system is rigged. A forum's rules should apply equally to all.

 

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1 hour ago, Mallorn said:

I disagree with you. Breaking the rules is still breaking the rules. Some posters deliberately goad and insult others in a passive aggressive way that based on the words themselves in isolation is not overtly breaking the rules or offering insult. However viewing all the words together with a proper understanding of the tone and intention of the writer, it is quite clear that the words are bating, insulting, patronising, sarcastic, rude etc.

We've all met these kind of people in real life who employ the same tactics, overtly appearing to be a nice person and appearing as such to people who do not know them. Yet those who do, know exactly that they are in fact being snide, arrogant,  insincere and insulting. 

In English, you have to take into account the tone of the speaker and their often veiled intention, as this changes a word or phrase's meaning completely. English isn't as simple as just viewing the semantics of the words and the moderation of a forum should take this in to account.

I'd argue that this kind of baiting riles people up more than the overt name calling and it is hard for many people to ignore it when it goes on and on and on, with the same posters responding to you in this manner all the time.

 

You mention reporting. The problem is, when these kinds of posts are responded with like-for-like ie. no overt name calling or insults, the instigator is never rebuked by the biased mods but the responder is.

Reporting is useless when the entire system is rigged. A forum's rules should apply equally to all.

 

Again, there's no need to respond with like for like - ie. stooping to their level. Either ignore or take the high road and, if you feel it is warranted because rules were broken, Report.

Presumably, few are 12 years old on the boards and need to go down the tit for tat route. Reminds me of kids in the car on a long trip when I was 9 years old sometimes. "But mommmm, she stuck her tongue out at me first and I felt disrespected!!!! I just HAD to retaliate!" Give me a break.

I'm not saying there's no bias. The way to act is to rise above it and not give anyone a reason to give you an infraction. Report so the mods are aware of it.

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5 minutes ago, SNy said:

You know, it would help if you not only read, but comprehended what is being written. Your continued comments with the very same content show that you either choose to ignore or refuse to acknowledge the point that is being made.

I could say the same for them, couldn't I?

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55 minutes ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Again, there's no need to respond with like for like - ie. stooping to their level. Either ignore or take the high road and, if you feel it is warranted because rules were broken, Report.

Presumably, few are 12 years old on the boards and need to go down the tit for tat route. Reminds me of kids in the car on a long trip when I was 9 years old sometimes. "But mommmm, she stuck her tongue out at me first and I felt disrespected!!!! I just HAD to retaliate!" Give me a break.

I'm not saying there's no bias. The way to act is to rise above it and not give anyone a reason to give you an infraction. Report so the mods are aware of it.

But that's just what YOU would do. How you think a situation should be dealt with has absolutely no bearing on the rest of us. We don't have to abide by your options, or forever be labelled a child for ignoring them.

And, again, what you think is immature, is entirely subjective. I could just as well say that ignoring them is like a kid putting their hands over their ears and going "la la la la la la". Or using the report function is like a kid running to tell the teacher. "That boy made a smug face at me and I just had to tell!". I think being transparent about things is more mature than trying to establish a sense of moral superiority to make one feel better.

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18 minutes ago, SNy said:

You could spin it like everyone of us was somehow not seeing the truth, or something, but what is more likely? That you alone have been "getting" it? You might want to think about that for a second.

What truth am I not seeing? That you HAVE to respond to like with like? That you HAVE to stoop to snark and insults?

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1 minute ago, FundinStrongarm said:

What truth am I not seeing? That you HAVE to respond to like with like? That you HAVE to stoop to snark and insults?

I don't know i just gave you an example of the trolling I saw without using name calling directly.  And you pretty much called me a baby.  So I'm going to take your advice and ignore the rest of your posts.  No insults, no snark. You may think you are smarter than the rest of us and somehow above us correcting our views. 

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29 minutes ago, SNy said:

 

 

Quote

 

But that's just what YOU would do. How you think a situation should be dealt with has absolutely no bearing on the rest of us. We don't have to abide by your options, or forever be labelled a child for ignoring them.

And, again, what you think is immature, is entirely subjective. I could just as well say that ignoring them is like a kid putting their hands over their ears and going "la la la la la la". Or using the report function is like a kid running to tell the teacher. "That boy made a smug face at me and I just had to tell!". I think being transparent about things is more mature than trying to establish a sense of moral superiority to make one feel better.

 

 

If you think ignoring an insult or slight is the same as covering yours ears "la la la" style, more power to you.

People have agreed to the ToS for using cartain forums. If you violate the terms, expect infractions. I'm giving my opinion on options to take to avoid infractions. If you want to behave in such a way that you get infracted, that's on you. There ARE ways to avoid them.

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1 minute ago, FundinStrongarm said:

If you think ignoring an insult or slight is the same as covering yours ears "la la la" style, more power to you.

People have agreed to the ToS for using cartain forums. If you violate the terms, expect infractions. I'm giving my opinion on options to take to avoid infractions. If you want to behave in such a way that you get infracted, that's on you. There ARE ways to avoid them.

Okay, one more time, just to make it clear: This isn't about wanting to break rules, this is about uneven moderation. Behaviour among one select group of users is permitted, while others are infracted for it. It's the bias that's the problem. The only reason we got into the whole responding thing was because you strongly implied baiting from fanboys is acceptable and no one should have a problem with it, unless they're childish.

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9 minutes ago, Thequinn said:

I don't know i just gave you an example of the trolling I saw without using name calling directly.  And you pretty much called me a baby.  So I'm going to take your advice and ignore the rest of your posts.  No insults, no snark. You may think you are smarter than the rest of us and somehow above us correcting our views. 

What part of "None of that is direct name-calling or insults. I file that under either ignore or level-headed response, likely the former. No need to stoop to their level" called you a baby? 

Anyway, looking at what you posted before, if someone kept responding to everyone that agreed that there was a problem with X with the same snark about there not being a problem with X over and over, Report it. Otherwise it will most likely not get corrected.

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On 10/18/2016 at 4:16 PM, warspeech said:

I'd like to hear what Cordovan thinks about people who tell other posters they have no right to post on a topic, accuse them of having a sinister hidden agenda, refuse to listen to anything they don't want to hear, repeat the "sinister hidden agenda" talking point over and over and over as it it's an established fact and not a made-up smear tactic, then declare that they're "too afraid to post" when they get called on their bullshit.

 

I'm quoting myself here because what I wrote there is a summary of a pages and pages long exchange on the OF from a while back.   While each individual post, if reported, might not look like a problem, the entirety of the exchange is *big* problem that has gone on for far too long over the span of the last 3 CMs tenures (Cordovan included).

Context is important. Patterns of behavior are important.  Reporting an individual post in a long drawn-out exchange like this is useless.  You need to be willing to see the whole picture to understand the insidious toxicity of these kinds of responses. 

Our new CM has made it clear that he's not interested in doing this.  And the offenders know it and take it as a free pass to keep on doing what they do.  That's the nature of the uneven moderation. 

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Quote

Okay, one more time, just to make it clear: This isn't about wanting to break rules, this is about uneven moderation. Behaviour among one select group of users is permitted, while others are infracted for it. It's the bias that's the problem. The only reason we got into the whole responding thing was because you strongly implied baiting from fanboys is acceptable and no one should have a problem with it, unless they're childish.

The mods shouldn't have uneven moderation, you're right. Baiting from anyone should be dealt with by the mods. Most of the time they won't know about it unless it is brought to their attention through the Report tag since it's nigh impossible for a mod to keep up with every thread on a forum the size of LotROs. I apologize if what I've said implied that baiting by fanboys (or anyone else) is acceptable behaviour.

I do think that responding to baiting through snark/baiting or insults will not do anyone any favours.

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41 minutes ago, FundinStrongarm said:

The mods shouldn't have uneven moderation, you're right. Baiting from anyone should be dealt with by the mods. Most of the time they won't know about it unless it is brought to their attention through the Report tag since it's nigh impossible for a mod to keep up with every thread on a forum the size of LotROs. I apologize if what I've said implied that baiting by fanboys (or anyone else) is acceptable behaviour.

I do think that responding to baiting through snark/baiting or insults will not do anyone any favours.

Ok so we can finally agree some of this stuff is baiting.  These so called fanboys were reported on the regular.  They obviously received no infraction because they just kept posting. 

The only fanboy I can think of that received a ban was old dirty programmer but that was after he flamed turbine for letting hobbits and dwarves into Rohan.

I see the Crossbow is still able to post.  They never banned him they actually rewarded him with a player council position.  While at times I have agreed with Crossbow, he doesn't disguise his trolling at all.  And then plays innocent afterwards as if he has done nothing wrong.

There's a list of these people, known trolls,  who were not punished but granted spots on the council.   That dude RKL or what ever his tag was comes to mind.  I know for a fact he was reported by several posters.  And that "hide behind the tag person"  who keeps popping in here.  The point is nothing was done.  This is only a warning to this new CM.  Because none of what I'm talking about has anything to do with him.  He just may not be aware of the poor treatment by his predecessors.   And I'm no longer part of the community any longer since MT released but I would think my own incite is valuable because I have seen the Lotro official forums in a ok state at one point.  But it was certainly before ROI

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