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Cordovan
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1 hour ago, FundinStrongarm said:

If I were you, Cordovan, I'd stick with improving things going forward instead of rehashing stuff from 2-3 years ago. Sure, revisit some bans if/when you get a chance but that seems best done through PMs. Otherwise, you will likely get caught up in the minutia of lawyer-speak and the saga of stuff people ought to just let go. It's already happening.

Yeah, let's all just start fresh and hold hands into the sunset.

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On 7/26/2016 at 10:06 PM, Fredelas said:

I want to publicly thank Cordovan for taking a leap of faith by reviewing my infraction history and restoring my access to the official forums, without me even specifically requesting it. I'll do my best not to make anyone regret it.

I won't be disappearing from this community, though. I was here long before my departure from the official forums, and I enjoy the camaraderie, conversations, and commentary you all bring to LOTRO.

Thank you Cordovan. 

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Well, since Cordovan opened this "can of worms", I "vote" for a "new pact" that includes a lenient revision of the perma bans of most members of these forums and a compromise of them to forget the anti-turbine mindset (justified or not).

At risk to sound as a politician, maybe is time to come back and move on. If Turbines's plans are to continue/finish the game, then we need everyone.

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2 hours ago, Trisswyn said:

Well, since Cordovan opened this "can of worms", I "vote" for a "new pact" that includes a lenient revision of the perma bans of most members of these forums and a compromise of them to forget the anti-turbine mindset (justified or not).

At risk to sound as a politician, maybe is time to come back and move on. If Turbines's plans are to continue/finish the game, then we need everyone.

Well, what their plans are and what the staff is allowed to tell us might be two different matters.

I continue on the standpoint that the license expiration in spring 2017 is an investment blocker for every serious customer of the game.

FWIW WB signed movie and TV show deals with the estate today. So maybe we get some news.

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49 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

Well, what their plans are and what the staff is allowed to tell us might be two different matters.

I continue on the standpoint that the license expiration in spring 2017 is an investment blocker for every serious customer of the game.

FWIW WB signed movie and TV show deals with the estate today. So maybe we get some news.

 

Edit: Nevermind.

Should read post date on article.

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3 hours ago, Trisswyn said:

Well, since Cordovan opened this "can of worms", I "vote" for a "new pact" that includes a lenient revision of the perma bans of most members of these forums and a compromise of them to forget the anti-turbine mindset (justified or not).

At risk to sound as a politician, maybe is time to come back and move on. If Turbines's plans are to continue/finish the game, then we need everyone.

I've never been banned or infracted on the OF.  And I'll carry on thinking and saying whatever the hell I want to about Turbine. Thanks for your concern though.

As for needing everyone to continue/finish the game, they need to work on the lag/crashes/freezing/bugs before that becomes possible for those of us who can't play for more than a few minutes at a time.  

I offer a counter-proposal: Let Turbine review and reverse the bans and offer a public apology for the abuses of the past, and let everyone else accept the fact that we were painted in a very hostile light for daring to bring those abuses to peoples' attention.

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Either way, the technical issues of the game are (IMHO) more critical towards salvaging what's left of the LotRO populace, as the game is so dated at this point that a comparison between modern MMOs (like TSW or FFXIV, for example) don't do LotRO any favors.

In regards to content pacing, LotRO really should have crossed into the Fourth age around 4-5 years ago, and we absolutely need content updates as frequently as DDO gets theirs, as the slow content pacing is part of what's killing the game.

And I also realize that all of that is completely out of the control of the CM, but it does touch on issues that feed into the general mood of the forums.

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I don't plan to hold public trials on reinstating bans, but will be working to address bans that can be re-evaluated soon. The best way to get this done is to send in a ticket through support.turbine.com, and although it may take a while, I'll see what we can do. 

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2 hours ago, Cordovan said:

I don't plan to hold public trials on reinstating bans, but will be working to address bans that can be re-evaluated soon. The best way to get this done is to send in a ticket through support.turbine.com, and although it may take a while, I'll see what we can do. 

All due respect, Cordovan, they are looking for more of a "Sapience overstepped the mark of what was acceptable behaviour from a Community Manager" kinda thing. I understand that's unlikely to happen, but that is what my understanding of the issue is.

Also, acknowledgement that this site wasn't created for the sake of causing trouble, leaking stuff from beta, or housing those banned from the officials and that it's main objective has been to remain a safe meeting place for those who used Codemasters services before Migration, and as a conduit for unbiased reporting on the game, whatever that might be. Yes, we have our share of trolls over here(looking at you, MMOTroll ;) ), but the Officials have had them too, and a lot of them have been allowed to behave that way by previous Community Managers, using baiting tactics to get people infractions or bans. It is still going on to this day.

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Only a small amount of people who made this forum their home were banned from the OF at the time they decided this one is better for them. What happened afterwards is ... documented in this thread.

I maintain that the root of the problem here is that Sapience spent a lot of energy on erasing the tracks of his activities so that it is hard for a new community manager to be convinced of those wrongdoings.

Also, game beta leaks violating Turbine NDAs are not allowed here and are subject to removal if notified about. This has been specifically made clear by the site owner.

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2 hours ago, LordVorontur said:

All due respect, Cordovan, they are looking for more of a "Sapience overstepped the mark of what was acceptable behaviour from a Community Manager" kinda thing. I understand that's unlikely to happen, but that is what my understanding of the issue is.

Also, acknowledgement that this site wasn't created for the sake of causing trouble, leaking stuff from beta, or housing those banned from the officials and that it's main objective has been to remain a safe meeting place for those who used Codemasters services before Migration, and as a conduit for unbiased reporting on the game, whatever that might be. Yes, we have our share of trolls over here(looking at you, MMOTroll ;) ), but the Officials have had them too, and a lot of them have been allowed to behave that way by previous Community Managers, using baiting tactics to get people infractions or bans. It is still going on to this day.

Right, that's what I was aiming for.

I know it's not very likely.

I was objecting to yet another variation of the "let's all just move on" plea that people use to try to sweep unpleasant truths under the rug. (Not saying that that's what you were aiming at, Trisswyn, but it amounts to the same thing in the end, and I'm not cool with that.)

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5 hours ago, warspeech said:

Right, that's what I was aiming for.

I know it's not very likely.

I was objecting to yet another variation of the "let's all just move on" plea that people use to try to sweep unpleasant truths under the rug. (Not saying that that's what you were aiming at, Trisswyn, but it amounts to the same thing in the end, and I'm not cool with that.)

Ugh. Stuff from 2-3 years ago needs to be let go from those who bear a grudge, imo. Looking at the OP, what do you want besides "Apparently things weren't good back then"? Is there no moving on point? Is he supposed to sift through the deleted shambles of whatever records remain from then? At what point does he say "Fuck it, those guys are just pricks who hated the CM from 2 years ago (and 2 CMs ago) and just want me to grovel"? How many of those people actually play the game anymore? I mean, it took less than a page before the dredging of the past came to the fore.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents.

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I must say I'm impressed.  I think if the previous people in your position had come to speak to this community sooner it would have went a long way saving some of the player bleed.  I understand that you can't do anything about what past CM's have done, except maybe take example and not do the things they were notorious for.  

With all that said I think it is important for you to know as the new CM why a player like myself who dedicated many hours and around $1000 to your game left, came back for about 3 weeks and then came back for about 2 weeks and left for good.  It would go a long way into seeing the mistakes of the past and not making those again as a company.

1.  The community.  

When I first came to Lotro I was still playing WOW, arguably a game with one of the most toxic communities in gaming. (aside from LOL) Back during the end of the Moria expansion was when I began playing Lotro on a part time basis.  I was playing WOW 25 hours a week and your game 4 to 6 hours a week.   The players I met in your game were many times more helpful than the community I had spent 4 years in.  When you asked a question you didn't have to weed through 17 troll posts to find the actual answer.  When you voiced serious concerns with the gameplay players didn't automatically try to get you banned by baiting you into a toxic conversation.  

Towards the end of Rise of Isengard this changed.  The players in game were still awesome but the forums had become a place where if you criticized even legitimate problems with gameplay you were attacked by a select group who basically would discredit your every word because you weren't saying how great the game was.  (and it wasn't them simply disagreeing with you, but them trying to drown out your voice trying to make you look stupid)  The forums are the only place where we can hold up our hands and point out things we like or don't like about the game or problems we have with gameplay. I pretty much felt like my voice was being wasted.  Buried by 20 posts that were neither constructive or pertinent to the conversation.  I'm not sure what a CM can do to curb these types of discussion, because the internet is the home to many keyboard warriors.  Posters were using a former CM's quotes to marginalize parts of the community.   And that CM was not stopping them, ,maybe even encouraging them.

2.  Changes that players asked for, but really did not ask for.  

The changes in how talents were obtained and the change to the tree system were one of the big nails in the coffin for me.   At the point in which these changes were instituted the MMO I came from (WOW) was scraping that same system in favor of something more akin to the previous Lotro talent system.  Except you only earn those talents by simply leveling up.  I really liked earning those new skills and talents. Putting points behind content that was almost universally hated (Epic Battles)  was a huge mistake.  One of the biggest reasons why I left wow was the system for talents instituted for Cataclysm and Lotro had simply copied that system.  I never saw any number of posts that begged for the talent system of WOW cataclysm.  I would say you lost a fair number of players at the beginning of HD solely because of this change.  You certainly lost me shortly after.

3. Traditional raids 3 and  6 man dungeons no longer being developed.

I've been an MMO player since 2005.  I've played WOW, Rift, SWTOR, Lotro and DDO.  When you quest for 95 levels and you;'re on your own for a majority of those levels it is nice to finally reach level cap and get together with your kin and beat some of the toughest content in the game or just run a dungeon for fun.  When that content is no longer there or is replaced by something unpopular that takes all the skills you learned for 95 levels and throws it out the window people lose the will to keep logging in.  The only social aspect becomes Kin chat or very old scaled content, which players grow to hate.  Quite frankly I can do that on facebook.  And running years old content scaled up should be bonus content and not the only content when it comes to traditional group content.  None of the other MMO's I've played have made changes like that.  And it is now why I have crawled back to World of Warcraft even though I'm not thrilled with that game.

4.  Your loot system was destroyed during ROR.

Everyone likes to be rewarded for their efforts.  No matter if it's completing a long epic quest chain or wasting 2 hours in a raid.  And that was just how it felt at the end of a raid.  Players were getting useless items (OR items they already had won previously) and some players were walking away with nothing.  Making loot BOP and linking it to an rng specific to single players was a total mistake. I can understand you did this to make loot rules fair but it did the opposite.

 I vividly remember running the Raid with the 2 trolls and getting the same gold runekeepers hat about 4 times a week while our other RK  went away with nothing.  If we had group loot that player would have had that item already but instead I have to vendor a gold.  Also I was playing a guardian during that time and was coming away with items only a captain could use (tactical mastery).  After amassing 3 gold Captain items and ZERO even cyan Guardian  items (even though the Cyans were BOE, people knew they weren't dropping and were selling them for astronomical rates on the AH) I was done with raiding and running dungeons.  I was so demoralized by your loot system that I could no longer enjoy the game.  And judging by the shrinking size of my kin at the time I wasn't the only one.  In the ROI days we were filling 3 separate raid groups a week.  After Wildermore hit we were pugging to get one group going.

I'm not trying to bash your game.  But parts of your staff  seemed out of touch with the player base during the time periods listed. At one time (before ROR)  I actually loved your game and had little to complain about on your forums.  I can't think of one critical post I made aside from Draigoch not working on a consistent basis.  

When your company looks back it should see it's errors and learn from them.   I think it is important for every player who does not play any longer to also give a list of the reasons why they left so not only your company can learn but other similar companies.  It would certainly help retain players.   I keep my Lotro screenshots to this day only because it gives me an opportunity to look back and see a game I once loved and supported.  For me any changes are probably too little too late.  But for the current players it isn't.  My advice would be to listen to those players and give them honest information.  And try to relay their ideas to your executive director.  I wish you luck.  

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10 hours ago, Darmokk said:

Only a small amount of people who made this forum their home were banned from the OF at the time they decided this one is better for them. What happened afterwards is ... documented in this thread.

I was here a very long time before my ban.  At minimum a year.  I found this site to be more friendly to those who enjoy group content.  Where as the official forums were full of people telling me to basically bugger off.  Not just fanboys but the CM at the time, but mostly the rabid fanboys.

2 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Ugh. Stuff from 2-3 years ago needs to be let go from those who bear a grudge, imo. Looking at the OP, what do you want besides "Apparently things weren't good back then"? Is there no moving on point? Is he supposed to sift through the deleted shambles of whatever records remain from then? At what point does he say "Fuck it, those guys are just pricks who hated the CM from 2 years ago (and 2 CMs ago) and just want me to grovel"? How many of those people actually play the game anymore? I mean, it took less than a page before the dredging of the past came to the fore.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents.

I think it's important for players to point out the mistakes of the past if you want to move forward.  No one is blaming Cordovan specifically for mistakes he did not make. (at least I'm not)  I would like to think that my very critical post was well thought out and constructive.  Even though I will no longer be playing Lotro that doesn't mean there is no lesson to be learned from my personal story.  I don't think it's right to totally discredit someone who spent nearly 1 grand on an MMO because they will no longer consider playing the game.  Which is why these will be my only 2 posts on this matter unless Cordovan directly responds to me.  And even then it will be a thanks for taking the time to listen and that's it.   I don't want to see any groveling on the part of a person who was not involved in my displeasure.   And as with every forum we will have our share of wankers.  Get over it man.  It's called ignore.

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10 hours ago, warspeech said:

Right, that's what I was aiming for.

I know it's not very likely.

I was objecting to yet another variation of the "let's all just move on" plea that people use to try to sweep unpleasant truths under the rug. (Not saying that that's what you were aiming at, Trisswyn, but it amounts to the same thing in the end, and I'm not cool with that.)

Me too.

 

4 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Ugh. Stuff from 2-3 years ago needs to be let go from those who bear a grudge, imo. Looking at the OP, what do you want besides "Apparently things weren't good back then"? Is there no moving on point? Is he supposed to sift through the deleted shambles of whatever records remain from then? At what point does he say "Fuck it, those guys are just pricks who hated the CM from 2 years ago (and 2 CMs ago) and just want me to grovel"? How many of those people actually play the game anymore? I mean, it took less than a page before the dredging of the past came to the fore.

 

Anyway, my 2 cents.

If Turbine want to build bridges than they need to acknowledge that they treated their customers disgustingly. I know what went on in the past was nothing to do with Cordovan. However, the CM is the face and voice of the company and for many years that voice was rude, patronising and nasty; Turbine was rude, patronising and nasty to its customers. 

It was this lack of respect for their customers that turned me from a loyal customer to someone who could no longer bring themselves to spend money on the game. When Fredelas was banned, that was the final straw for me. If Turbine could gleefully ban someone who spent hours compiling a guide that was used by thousands of their customers, that to me, showed that they viewed us all with contempt.

Turbine sanctioned everything Sapience did as it was they who put him in that position and kept in it that position for several years. I blame Turbine and I don't feel any less disgusted with them because Cordovan has come here to try and build bridges. Turbine need to acknowledge that they treated their customers with contempt. Why should we forgive and forget?

I'd also like to add I have no personal agenda clouding my opinion. I never had any personal issues with Sapience. I was never banned from the official forums, I just hated what I was seeing there. I hated the way we were talked down to, dismissed and treated as though we were a nuisance. The Helms Deep Beta was the pinnacle of how to ignore, alienate and insult your customers. And now their game isn't doing too well, they want us to play and spend again.

No, you don't treat your customers like that and expect them to come back when things are tough for you. Turbine need to make amends; to acknowledge and apologise, preferably by someone in a management position like the executive producer, which we all know is not going to happen.

However, no disrespect to Cordovan. I think what he is doing is great and him removing unjust bans, is a step in the right direction.

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24 minutes ago, Mallorn said:

If Turbine want to build bridges than they need to acknowledge that they treated their customers disgustingly. I know what went on in the past was nothing to do with Cordovan. However, the CM is the face and voice of the company and for many years that voice was rude, patronising and nasty; Turbine was rude, patronising and nasty to its customers. 

It was this lack of respect for their customers that turned me from a loyal customer to someone who could no longer bring themselves to spend money on the game. When Fredelas was banned, that was the final straw for me. If Turbine could gleefully ban someone who spent hours compiling a guide that was used by thousands of their customers, that to me, showed that they viewed us all with contempt.

Turbine sanctioned everything Sapience did as it was they who put him in that position and kept in it that position for several years. I blame Turbine and I don't feel any less disgusted with them because Cordovan has come here to try and build bridges. Turbine need to acknowledge that they treated their customers with contempt. Why should we forgive and forget?

I'd also like to add I have no personal agenda clouding my opinion. I never had any personal issues with Sapience. I was never banned from the official forums, I just hated what I was seeing there. I hated the way we were talked down to, dismissed and treated as though we were a nuisance. The Helms Deep Beta was the pinnacle of how to ignore, alienate and insult your customers. And now their game isn't doing too well, they want us to play and spend again.

No, you don't treat your customers like that and expect them to come back when things are tough for you. Turbine need to make amends; to acknowledge and apologise, preferably by someone in a management position like the executive producer, which we all know is not going to happen.

However, no disrespect to Cordovan. I think what he is doing is great and him removing unjust bans, is a step in the right direction.

You know this will never happen.  All of you who are asking for this, you know--deep down--it will never happen.  The Turbine that exists today is not the same Turbine that existed back then.  Different management.  Different CM.  In most cases, all they have is the word of (what appears to be) a few butt-hurt, bitter, ex-forum members who for some reason can't let shit go.  I'm sorry, I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but looking over these posts the past couple of weeks has been a real eye-opener.  This stuff happened YEARS ago.  The fact that the current CM is willing to look at perma-bans on an individual basis when time permits and has already removed one of the more infamous bans (Fredelas) should be enough (isn't that action alone, saying "ok, this was wrong and we are willing to correct it")  He didn't have to post here.  He didn't have to extend an "olive branch" to begin with.  And yet, some people want their pound of flesh...I think that says more about the people who can't move on than it does anything else.  

So let's cut the bullshit, whether you "accept" the CM's efforts or not--in the end--really doesn't matter to Turbine.  You can be THAT person, who dredges up this stuff a year or two from now with yet another new Turbine employee and continue the cycle of bitterness ad nauseam or you can just...move. the. fuck. on.

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16 hours ago, Cordovan said:

I don't plan to hold public trials on reinstating bans, but will be working to address bans that can be re-evaluated soon. The best way to get this done is to send in a ticket through support.turbine.com, and although it may take a while, I'll see what we can do. 

You don't even seem to be planning on acknowledging the actions of the community team. Better to just pretend none of it ever happened or that it was all the fault of players, right?

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2 hours ago, Doro said:

Better to just pretend none of it ever happened or that it was all the fault of players, right?

Doro, get over yourself.  The fact that he bothered to even post here and has opened up a dialogue proves that you are way off the mark here.

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