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Unbanning Fredelas was an easy no-brainer, a painless way to score points.

I"m glad that happened and that we had any small part to play in righting that wrong.

I"m glad we have someone in the CM chair who took the time to stop in here.

I know that there is way too much old stuff to sort through to get a sense of the reality of those times, and I also know that a lot of the posts/threads that were made back then were deleted quickly and are now hard to find unless you look for places that kept them (here, for instance).

I was there, I lived through it with a lot of other folks here.  Using terms like "bitter, butt-hurt, disgruntled" is exactly the same thing we heard at the time those things were happening.  Just for pointing out how things were.

So who exactly is holding on to the past and unable to let go?  

We had a chance to tell our side of things, lots of us gave examples, those examples don't portray Turbine in a flattering light.  It would be a sign of change for someone there to say "Yes, that was bad, that's not going to happen again".

I don't think the fact that it was a few years ago has any relevance.  No one from Turbine has bothered to come here and give us the chance to talk before now.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, warspeech said:

Unbanning Fredelas was an easy no-brainer, a painless way to score points.

I"m glad that happened and that we had any small part to play in righting that wrong.

It would be a sign of change for someone there to say "Yes, that was bad, that's not going to happen again".

 

 

 

he still didn't have to do it.  but he did.  which is more than any CM has done in years.

there is no way to "right that wrong."  it's done.  again, at what point do you actually MOVE ON?  Fredelas seems to be more graceful about it and he was the one who was banned.

the "sign of change" was the new CM coming here in the first place.  the fact that he took action and is offering to take further action against previous bans is further proof.  the fact that people won't be content until a current employee puts a former employee on blast is--to be blunt--petty.  i'm sorry, but that is just how i look at it.

 

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I don't want an apology or anything else referring to the past.

Doro is correct in pointing out that not everything Sapience did is in the past. Much of it is still in effect.

What's the status of the PC, anyway?

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3 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

Doro is correct in pointing out that not everything Sapience did is in the past. Much of it is still in effect.

 

like what exactly?  the forum moderation under Frelorn couldn't be more removed from that of Sapience, so i'd be curious to what it is you are referring to.

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1 hour ago, Papi said:

Doro, get over yourself.  The fact that he bothered to even post here and has opened up a dialogue proves that you are way off the mark here.

You first, prick. Your opinion has no sway over what I will and will not post.

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58 minutes ago, Papi said:

he still didn't have to do it.  but he did.  which is more than any CM has done in years.

there is no way to "right that wrong."  it's done.  again, at what point do you actually MOVE ON?  Fredelas seems to be more graceful about it and he was the one who was banned.

the "sign of change" was the new CM coming here in the first place.  the fact that he took action and is offering to take further action against previous bans is further proof.  the fact that people won't be content until a current employee puts a former employee on blast is--to be blunt--petty.  i'm sorry, but that is just how i look at it.

 

No need to apologize, Papi, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

Not talking about anyone who has posted here, just in generalities: It feels a little like now that we have a chance to tell our side of things to the current LOTRO CM, to reach an understanding of why the animosity runs so deep, that folks who were happy to have us be known as the forum of misfit trolls are a little too invested in not letting us give details of days gone by.  

Maybe it's more comfortable to try to keep thinking that we're all here because we're banned, bitter, troublemakers with nothing to back up our displeasure.

An olive branch and a sure-to-please unbanning with hopefully more to come are great, no argument about that.  I don't think that earns a "Hey, Turbine are being good guys now and if you don't see that you suck"  just yet.

I'm fine not mentioning He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named specifically, I don't think I said anything like that. I would like to see something in the future after Cordovan gets clear on how his era of community management is going to be defined. Something that gives a nod to The Bad Times however he is comfortable saying it.

Is that unrealistic?  Most likely yes.  But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, warspeech said:

It would be a sign of change for someone there to say "Yes, that was bad, that's not going to happen again".

I don't think the fact that it was a few years ago has any relevance.  No one from Turbine has bothered to come here and give us the chance to talk before now.

Then the goalposts would get moved again. "What was bad?" "Who was bad?" "We're going to make you say Sapience's name specifically and want you to confess that Turbine sanctioned every last mean thing that happened in the forums in 2013!" And if not done with the proper hairsplitting legalese precision then what? Look, some people actually did deserve sanctions including banning. They're pricks through and through. They will never be satisfied. Sifting through the remnants of stuff from 2-3 years and 2 CMs ago to right every wrong just is not going to happen. Publically arguing every case, as some have proposed, is an exercise in futility.

He's come here and asked for feedback on what, within his CM bailiwick, he can do going forward to improve communication. He's undone a ban and said he'll look at more including giving a framework on how to go about it. Take the offer and run with it. Dredging up the bitterness of the past is just going to shut this door that has been opened.

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This is not a post to blame one side or the other, these are only my thoughts, please bare that in mind. By posting here the new CM is showing that he is willing to confront the situation instead of simply ignoring the past and getting on with things. This surely is a step in a positive direction.  There is still much anger and bitterness on how things were handled  years ago and it is time to heal for all those involved, this mean people on both sides of the argument because bitterness is not a good place to be for anyone.

All bitterness starts out as hurt . Many people that have been banned from the forums were after all only trying to express their opinion on the game, trying to make the game batter because they did/do care about the game . More often than not though the way people deliver thoughts on a gaming forum became entangled in rage  wich inflame an already hot topic. When this happen  the feedback we want to pass on gets lost and discussions soon descend into a war of words.  Enter the guy on the other side...the CM or moderator in charge have to decide how to act and this is never as easy as many people think. 

Much of what happened in the past is perceived by many here as if the person/team then in charge had  malicious intent which I still don't think was the case , they were simply using their own rules on their own forum maybe a bit too diligently . When that particular era ended on the forum we had a new CM which was really at the opposite end of the spectrum when it came to moderation,  old grievances were not tackled . Different people, different styles of course, not passing judgment of course, just pointing out how different  the community was under the last CM. 

And then we come to the 'here and now'. A new CM willing to start the healing process even though he knows how hard that can be after all these years. If he is ready to face the past and deal with it  so can we. By posting here he knew he would open the proverbial 'can of worms' , wounds  are obviously still sore. Yes  many years have passed and yes that was the past, 'time to move on'  many say and they are right but in the 'moving on ' process old would must be healed for good. tings must not be forgotten but forgiveness ( on ALL sides)  must be the way to go,

For forgiveness alone people to let go of grievances, grudges, rancor and resentment. It’s the single most potent antidote for the venomous desire for retributive justice poisoning your system . The past need closure and this thread and seeing Fred back on the forums  are a good start. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Papi said:

Doro, get over yourself.  The fact that he bothered to even post here and has opened up a dialogue proves that you are way off the mark here.

@ Amorey - this is for you too. I can't believe you posted what you just wrote. Healing process? Even if that is in order (which I dispute), do you even know what is needed for that? An open and honest discussion in which nothing is kept off the table, amends are made by the offender, what is wrong is fixed, and the past offenses are NOT repeated!!

 

He bothered to post here, ask us for our opinion, and then excluded discussing game development right out of the door.

That in itself makes the discussion empty and useless. They can't be separated. Moving forward is only possible when things can be addressed. The game as it is today is the result of decisions made in the past. Soit. Thequinn's posts are excellent (he brings stuff up that I had forgotten). I hope they get read and taken to heart.

I myself am glad to see that people remember and spell it out. People cared and still care. I don't see disgruntled or the inability to forgive (for Pete's sake, it's a business, customers are treated with contempt, they don't have to forgive anything). I am convinced that we still see Paiz et al.'s direction in how the game is developing today. U18/level cap increase without a crafting addition.... yeah... 'you can give the players anything (or nothing or piecemeal) and they will keep playing (and paying). If that's still the philosophy behind how this game is run, how can that be ignored? It may make WB 'the most money', but it's not good for the player base, which the game ultimately depends on, whales or not.

I still use well known housing item websites to find stuff, but they haven't been updated for a long time now. There is a reason for that. People gave up. Not because they didn't want to play anymore but because they had enough. Good for them.

I wouldn't dare to post the above or my earlier post on the OF, but I will here. I am still playing the game (although no crafting update/usefulness has greatly diminished how much I play). I bought TP last year, which I still haven't spent because there is 'nothing' that I want to spend them on.

 

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3 hours ago, Papi said:

the "sign of change" was the new CM coming here in the first place.  the fact that he took action and is offering to take further action against previous bans is further proof.

Yeah, this is enough for me, personally. I don't care if Turbine acknowledges any past wrongs. It doesn't matter.  It's enough that Cordovan posted here in an open minded way. I give him the benefit of the doubt.  

The game is in a sorry state. This is not going to change - unless Turbine spends some real money on it - and they won't. Staff working on Lotro will mainly just make some new content so they can say the game is still in development.

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2 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Then the goalposts would get moved again. "What was bad?" "Who was bad?" "We're going to make you say Sapience's name specifically and want you to confess that Turbine sanctioned every last mean thing that happened in the forums in 2013!" And if not done with the proper hairsplitting legalese precision then what? Look, some people actually did deserve sanctions including banning. They're pricks through and through. They will never be satisfied. Sifting through the remnants of stuff from 2-3 years and 2 CMs ago to right every wrong just is not going to happen. Publically arguing every case, as some have proposed, is an exercise in futility.

He's come here and asked for feedback on what, within his CM bailiwick, he can do going forward to improve communication. He's undone a ban and said he'll look at more including giving a framework on how to go about it. Take the offer and run with it. Dredging up the bitterness of the past is just going to shut this door that has been opened.

Keep reading, I go on to say that I never asked for Sapience to be named, someone else jumped to that conclusion.

I also never asked for "public trials", I think it was Cordovan who came up with that one, no idea how he got that out of what had been posted before that.  But framing it that way is a great way to make it sound like a crazy request.

You're taking what I asked for and twisting it into something outlandish.  LV got the gist of it, right  away.  So clearly it was written in an understandable manner. I've already said more than once that I don't expect it to happen.

If you can't handle others asking for some kind of acknowledgement of unfair practices, even though they know it's 99% never going to happen, maybe you need to re-examine where your own rage is coming from.

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10 hours ago, Thequinn said:

3. Traditional raids 3 and  6 man dungeons no longer being developed.

4.  Your loot system was destroyed during ROR.

Fortunately, that's not the case any more! We have a good amout of new group and raid content, no more Epic Battles, (almost) no Mounted Combat and the traditional loot system is back (unique loot for different bosses and difficulty tiers, master loot option, raid locks, etc.).

4 hours ago, Darmokk said:

What's the status of the PC, anyway?

The 2015 Players Council is still in place. The majority of us is still actively playing the game and we're ready to council Turbine wherever it fits. Can't go into details for obvious reasons.

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11 hours ago, Papi said:

You know this will never happen.  All of you who are asking for this, you know--deep down--it will never happen.  The Turbine that exists today is not the same Turbine that existed back then.  Different management.  Different CM.  In most cases, all they have is the word of (what appears to be) a few butt-hurt, bitter, ex-forum members who for some reason can't let shit go.  I'm sorry, I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but looking over these posts the past couple of weeks has been a real eye-opener.  This stuff happened YEARS ago.  The fact that the current CM is willing to look at perma-bans on an individual basis when time permits and has already removed one of the more infamous bans (Fredelas) should be enough (isn't that action alone, saying "ok, this was wrong and we are willing to correct it")  He didn't have to post here.  He didn't have to extend an "olive branch" to begin with.  And yet, some people want their pound of flesh...I think that says more about the people who can't move on than it does anything else.  

So let's cut the bullshit, whether you "accept" the CM's efforts or not--in the end--really doesn't matter to Turbine.  You can be THAT person, who dredges up this stuff a year or two from now with yet another new Turbine employee and continue the cycle of bitterness ad nauseam or you can just...move. the. fuck. on.

You say some people cannot move on. I barely play LOTRO now: I have moved on. 

I know they will never address their past behaviour or apologise

 I am not dredging up stuff that happened years ago and I am not bitter. I have no feelings whatsoever about Turbine or LOTRO.

I simply pointed out that as a customer who has witnessed shocking treatment from a company, I am not suddenly going to change my opinion of them just because one of their new employees has made an effort to extend an olive branch. Only someone very naive would do that.

I am not bitter or dredging up the past just because I am pointing out that Turbine put Sapience in that position and kept him in it for years. He was their voice. What he did, Turbine did. It must have all been sanctioned by Turbine. They treated their customers with contempt and now they are not doing too well, they think they can be nice and it will all be forgotten? No. The customer - company relationship does not work like that.

I don't want a "pound of flesh". I am simply pointing out to Cordovan that it is going to take a lot more than him to change my opinion of Turbine. 

I also pointed out that a major problem with the game is the actual development of it. A decent CM is not going to make people want to play the game again if the new content is not very good.

5 hours ago, Amorey said:

This is not a post to blame one side or the other, these are only my thoughts, please bare that in mind. By posting here the new CM is showing that he is willing to confront the situation instead of simply ignoring the past and getting on with things. This surely is a step in a positive direction.  There is still much anger and bitterness on how things were handled  years ago and it is time to heal for all those involved, this mean people on both sides of the argument because bitterness is not a good place to be for anyone.

All bitterness starts out as hurt . Many people that have been banned from the forums were after all only trying to express their opinion on the game, trying to make the game batter because they did/do care about the game . More often than not though the way people deliver thoughts on a gaming forum became entangled in rage  wish inflame an already hot topic. When this happen  the feedback we want to pass on gets lost and discussions soon descend into a war of words.  Enter the guy on the other side...the CM or moderator in charge have to decide how to act and this is never as easy as many people think. 

Much of what happened in the past is perceived by many here as if the person/team then in charge had  malicious intent which I still don't think was the case , they were simply using their own rules on their own forum maybe a bit too diligently . When that particular era ended on the forum we had a new CM which was really at the opposite end of the spectrum when it came to moderation,  old grievances were not tacked . Different people, different styles of course, not passing judgment of course, just pointing out how different  the community was under the last CM. 

And then we come to the 'here and now'. A new CM willing to start the healing process even though he knows how hard that can be after all these years. If he is ready to face the past and deal with it  so can we. By posting here he knew he would open the proverbial 'can of worms' , wounds  are obviously still sore. Yes  many years have passed and yes that was the past, 'time to move on'  many say and they are right but in the 'moving on ' process old would must be healed for good. tings must not be forgotten but forgiveness ( on ALL sides)  must be the way to go,

For forgiveness alone people to let go of grievances, grudges, rancor and resentment. It’s the single most potent antidote for the venomous desire for retributive justice poisoning your system . The past need closure and this thread and seeing Fred back on the forums  are a good start. 

 

 

 

It's a video game made by a corporation. I do not need to heal or forgive. I was a customer that witnessed poor customer service and rude communication. I didn't like what I saw and so moved on to play games by companies that treat their customers with respect. I do not need closure. I do not need to let go of anything. I am not angry. I am not bitter. I am just a realist.

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44 minutes ago, warspeech said:

Keep reading, I go on to say that I never asked for Sapience to be named, someone else jumped to that conclusion.

I also never asked for "public trials", I think it was Cordovan who came up with that one, no idea how he got that out of what had been posted before that.  But framing it that way is a great way to make it sound like a crazy request.

You're taking what I asked for and twisting it into something outlandish.  LV got the gist of it, right  away.  So clearly it was written in an understandable manner. I've already said more than once that I don't expect it to happen.

If you can't handle others asking for some kind of acknowledgement of unfair practices, even though they know it's 99% never going to happen, maybe you need to re-examine where your own rage is coming from.

You may not have asked for these things but they have been asked for in this thread.

BTW, I have no rage. Though I do see some that do and have already written off the new guy.

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5 hours ago, warspeech said:

No need to apologize, Papi, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

 

 

I'm cool with that, too :)

4 hours ago, Tarantula said:

 

He bothered to post here, ask us for our opinion, and then excluded discussing game development right out of the door.

 

I wouldn't dare to post the above or my earlier post on the OF, but I will here. 

 

if he's not going to talk about specific development issues on the OF, why on earth would you expect him to do it here?

there is a lot wrong with the game on the development side, the mere fact that Turbine is going in the direction of mobile games speaks to that, but that is not why Cordovan posted here.  you can either accept that or bring things unrelated to the discussion which will get you nowhere and at some point, he will simply stop posting here.  

and what you posted here is tame compared to what has been posted over the past several months on the OF.

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2 hours ago, Mallorn said:

I am not suddenly going to change my opinion of them just because one of their new employee has made an effort to extend an olive branch. Only someone very naive would do that.

 

who, exactly, is asking you to change your opinion of Turbine?

while I can appreciate the effort made by the new CM for what it is, it changes nothing that is currently wrong with the game today.

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1 hour ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Though I do see some that do and have already written off the new guy.

I wrote him off after this particular post:

On ‎22‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 5:28 PM, Cordovan said:

That said, I know some of the bans are legit, having looked at some ban appeals for LOTRO in the past, and the folks banned have a difference of opinion on it, so be prepared to be told no if you've violated Wheaton's Law.

Basically, "if I don't unban you, it's because you were a dick". Then, when challenged on that, came out with more blame on the player. And when we mentioned this site's ban over there, the response was that it was likely our fault. The very concept of CM corruption didn't even crop up in his post. He also refuses to acknowledge what Turbine allowed to happen on the forums, and then said he didn't care about Turbine's history. A blinkered CM came waltzing over here with a big "fuck you" to everyone burnt by his company before.

While a couple of others on here may be acting like we should be bowing down and blowing him for daring to come here and ask for our opinions on the already rotting official forums, I'm firmly in the camp of those who haven't forgotten what previous Turbine employees were like and will certainly "dredge up" old issues when they're referred to by him. No response to the points we've raised tells me enough about him.

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15 minutes ago, Doro said:

I wrote him off after this particular post:

Basically, "if I don't unban you, it's because you were a dick". Then, when challenged on that, came out with more blame on the player. And when we mentioned this site's ban over there, the response was that it was likely our fault. The very concept of CM corruption didn't even crop up in his post. He also refuses to acknowledge what Turbine allowed to happen on the forums, and then said he didn't care about Turbine's history. A blinkered CM came waltzing over here with a big "fuck you" to everyone burnt by his company before.

While a couple of others on here may be acting like we should be bowing down and blowing him for daring to come here and ask for our opinions on the already rotting official forums, I'm firmly in the camp of those who haven't forgotten what previous Turbine employees were like and will certainly "dredge up" old issues when they're referred to by him. No response to the points we've raised tells me enough about him.

There are certainly a number of turds over there that someone manage to keep on trucking.  One in particular has somehow managed to accumulate 6000 posts, all the while continuing to be a toxic and belittling force.  How this happens is beyond me.  I agree though that's it's kind of like someone giving you a box of dogshit and when you complain they point out that they put a bow on it.  Once bitten, twice shy as they say.  Anyone who doesn't enter into any kind of communication with Turbine and the staff with trepidation is foolish.  

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26 minutes ago, Papi said:

who, exactly, is asking you to change your opinion of Turbine?

while I can appreciate the effort made by the new CM for what it is, it changes nothing that is currently wrong with the game today.

The fact that Cordovan has come here to post and is making an effort for there not to be any more animosity between Turbine and here indicates that their goal is to improve our opinion of Turbine, else why do it?

I agree with you on your second sentence. 

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Eh, it is useful to understand what came before so you have perspective on why a group behaves in a certain manner, and it also helps to prevent the same mistakes from occurring again.

That said, we may have put Cordovan into a no-win situation, when their objective was to try to bridge the gap between the communities...

I agree. Cordovan is in a no-win situation and cannot really say much as he has to tow the corporate line, but I do appreciate that he is trying to improve relations. However, as long as Turbine refuse to acknowledge that they themselves as a company caused this animosity, I don't see how there can be an improvement.

They cannot brush under the carpet how they treated their customers and now suddenly try to be nice because they as a company are not doing too well.

If Turbine were doing well as a company, does anyone seriously think their CM would come over here to post and try to improve relations?

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It's not history if the questionable bans are still in effect. And the only offer to review is the least transparent you can think of, not to mention a divide-and-conquer one.

It is not history if the IP license runs out next spring and nothing is being said about the future of either game or license.

It is not history that many of us can't even know why specifically we were banned because of the mechanism in place at the time: a ban has a personal message with the reason. You can't read the message since you can't log in. While vBulletin normally has the option of emailing p.m.s that was broken on the official forum at the time (probably still is).

What is history, and I fully agree on that, is Kate Paiz blowing all the development money and resources on game features nobody wanted in the first place and that are all broken in some way or another and contribute nothing to fun or revenue in the game. Fine. That's done. Past security breaches that have not been communicated to the player base in a reasonable manner are a thing of the past for now. We only have to revisit this if it happens again.

It is semi-history is that Sapience spent much of his time not only on wrongdoings but also on deleting evidence thereof. Whether that is something that is in the past and can be put to rest depends on how those people who are still around (on both sides of the isle) react. If information that was combed over by Sapience is used as the only source of information to decide anything future it is not history.

Whether the intransparency of the player's council matters or not depends on whether we will be deceived again using NDAs as a shield. Hopefully that doesn't happen. Still worth discussing so that we can understand where everybody stands. If there is no transparency for the P.C. at all then it is just a focus group, and not even a glorified one.

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Kudos to the new CM for attempting this but let's be honest, it's too little too late.  The damage was done long ago when Sapience played fanbois favourites against basically everyone else.  Beyond a mild reminiscent yearning to have my June, 2007 join date back on my forum posts, I really couldn't care less about having my ban lifted (and I probably deserved the ban anyway).  That said, Cordovan asked, so I'll offer the one thing I'd like to see in a CM:

Every single infraction I ever received resulted from the same pattern:

- Fanbois/ButthurtPvper/Troll attacks me for...whatever reason.

- I respond in kind, typically destroying Fanbois/ButthurtPvper/Troll and putting them squarely in their place.

- Fanbois/ButthurtPvper/Troll reports my response. 

I understand a community manager doesn't have endless resources to investigate every exchange on the forums but it would take 2 seconds to see I've never once reported anyone for anything, ever.  It would be nice if a moderator understood that someone who carries around the report button in a holster is *inherently* the antagonizer.  Unfortunately, the go-cry-to-momma types seem to win every time. 

 

 

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I spent a couple of hours today digging through a massive backlog of community/forum tickets, and tried to get back to folks' tickets that weren't so old as to not make sense to reply to. Now that that's done, I'm able to carve out some time to look at old forum bans. So, if you are looking to be reinstated on the forums, let me know through support.turbine.com. Send it to Community/Forum Support. It may take some time to get back to everyone, and I can't promise you'll be unbanned until I learn more about the circumstances that led to it, but I'm willing to spend some time to sort through this. 

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2 hours ago, Mallorn said:

 The fact that Cordovan has come here to post and is making an effort for there not to be any more animosity between Turbine and here indicates that their goal is to improve our opinion of Turbine, else why do it?

We really have no idea why Cordovan posted here. There could be lots of reasons. For example, maybe an employee reads these forums and thought it would be a good idea for him to post here (and told him about us). Maybe he has read these forums before for his own interest. We just have no idea. Your idea is possible too.  

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. Nothing Turbine has done related to Lotro is really his fault.

Anyway, thank you Cordovan. I wouldn't ask you to do any more than you have done. Thanks for the offer to look at the bans.

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