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LasraelLarson

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1 minute ago, Laurinaohtar said:

Because it takes time away from actual education and learning about things that actually exist. Morality and civility can be taught and encouraged without the need to refer to ancient texts,

So what about using the ancient Greek and Roman texts with respect to teaching government basics?

What about applying Sun Tzu's Art of War to business?

Only a fool discards a text because it's not modern.

1 minute ago, Laurinaohtar said:

No agenda, I have no horse in this race, I just find the whole episode a bit sad and believe Trump to be an incompetent fool.

If you don't have a horse in the race (IE you didn't vote in the last US presidential election) what does your opinion about Trump really matter?

38 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Of course it is a religion.  My point was that there are a number of people in the US that would have a fit if their kids were taught all about Islam and even given a copy of the Koran to read.

That's where you do a class (or two) on all the world religions, so you're not showing preference to one.

38 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Often when people say religion should be taught in school, they actually mean Christianity, or their denomination of Christianity, should be taught in school.

That's a narrow minded approach to things...

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1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

So what about using the ancient Greek and Roman texts with respect to teaching government basics?

What about applying Sun Tzu's Art of War to business?

Only a fool discards a text because it's not modern.

If you don't have a horse in the race (IE you didn't vote in the last US presidential election) what does your opinion about Trump really matter?

Can people not discuss issues?

If you want to teach a civics course you could start with Greek and Roman texts and move to modern times. Same with a world religions course, I suppose. But teaching that there is a God and the mysticism around it belongs at home or a place of worship, not at school, imo.

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13 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

If you don't have a horse in the race (IE you didn't vote in the last US presidential election) what does your opinion about Trump really matter?

None, it's just an opinion, you can choose to ignore it.

Here is my longer opinion (again, it doesn't matter at all, just the opinion of an English nerd), we talk about the far right and the far left in this debate as if they even matter, I'm certain that the extreme far right racist, homophobic, islamaphobic types probably mostly voted Trump and the the far left, ultra liberal so called SJW's probably voted Clintion but they both make up a very small minority of actual voters and can effectively be dismissed. Whats sad is that the majority who occupy the moderate right or left were gullible enough to elect Trump and listen to all the crap he promises (without ever explaining how he will accomplish it), it's ironic that part of Trumps campaign was based on having a go at the media and press yet he managed to manipulate them so successfully that so many people fell for it, I guess in that respect we should at least give him (or his campaign team) some credit.

My quotes got messed up but Sun Tzu and Ancient Greek\Roman texts were not works of fiction like the Bible.

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9 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Only a fool discards a text because it's not modern.

Only a fool sticks with a book that is full of contradictions and outright lies

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20 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

We should do more to teach about religion in school - otherwise we're promoting the religion of Atheism/Agnosticism.

as long as the establishment clause of the constitution is upheld, i see nothing wrong with a religious studies course. though i can't see that needed prior to a post secondary level, around the same time poli-sci courses and such are offered.

that said, the state of educators...  all the way from grade school to university has shifted so far to the (Marxist) Left...  presenting material for study Vs. indoctrination...  it is such a can of worms currently.  i would be soo incredibly leery of opportunists pushing agendas, rather than presenting material for study & evaluation.

as to the free exercise thereof...  i think it is best left to private freedoms, including assembly (churches & religiously funded schools.)

as to promoting Atheism/Agnosticism...  whilst i would agree if you argued that was the default status of individuals on that side of the poli spectrum & it is promoted indirectly via all these new courses on identity politics...  i can't say i agree that the absence of religious studies itself is the cause, but rather the overall shift away from standardized curriculum in favor of feelings based presentations.  

 

5 hours ago, Laurinaohtar said:

 

 

 

we can link tweets?

heh, heh  :D

as you can see from above, in 2005 Hillary sponsored a flag burning bill.  it never passed.

Trumps twitter game, leads news cycles & sometimes it just gets (usually the media) to put their foot in mouth.  you may not particularly appreciate the presentation, but overwhelmingly it is an effective tool for him to talk past the filters & go direct.  i hope he keeps up the practice.

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2 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

in 2005 Hillary sponsored a flag burning bill.  it never passed.

 

It was as equally stupid in 2005

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17 minutes ago, Laurinaohtar said:

It was as equally stupid in 2005

flag making companies would agree...

the actual burning of the flag isn't a problem, but rather the peripheral violence.  that sometimes has unintentional humor.

never stomp on a burning flag dummy:

 

you are on fire dopey:

 

not the brightest bulbs burn flags, makes for terrible optics to boot.  i am fairly certain with Trumps tweet, even more morons will display their lack of judgement.  they are free to do so in my books... 

#dumb-asses.

 

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The Boy Scouts of America burn flags all the time.  In fact they have a ceremony where they retire old flags and often burn them.  Would be really weird if they lost their citizenship for doing that. 

I just dont understand the relationship many Americans have with their flag.  If someone was to burn my countries flag, either the Saltire or the Union flag, I would not care at all.  Getting upset about a bit of coloured cloth is just beyond me

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3 hours ago, FundinStrongarm said:

Can people not discuss issues?

If you want to teach a civics course you could start with Greek and Roman texts and move to modern times. Same with a world religions course, I suppose. But teaching that there is a God and the mysticism around it belongs at home or a place of worship, not at school, imo.

Then again, it could be argued by not acknowledging that at least one god may exist promotes the religions of atheism and agnosticism.

The entire thing's really lose/lose.

3 hours ago, cossieuk said:

Only a fool sticks with a book that is full of contradictions and outright lies

Prove it, or you're a fool talking about things they don't know.

2 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

as long as the establishment clause of the constitution is upheld, i see nothing wrong with a religious studies course. though i can't see that needed prior to a post secondary level, around the same time poli-sci courses and such are offered.

that said, the state of educators...  all the way from grade school to university has shifted so far to the (Marxist) Left...  presenting material for study Vs. indoctrination...  it is such a can of worms currently.  i would be soo incredibly leery of opportunists pushing agendas, rather than presenting material for study & evaluation.

Unfortunately, that shift in ideology makes for a very poor basis for STEM-centric educations.

You need to be able to critical think and question stuff if you're going to be a good engineer, and you need to have a strong sense of curiosity to be able to do research in any real capacity.  Neither trait is good for indoctrination.

Quote

as to promoting Atheism/Agnosticism...  whilst i would agree if you argued that was the default status of individuals on that side of the poli spectrum & it is promoted indirectly via all these new courses on identity politics...  i can't say i agree that the absence of religious studies itself is the cause, but rather the overall shift away from standardized curriculum in favor of feelings based presentations.  

That's where we need to pull politics out of the education system... all it's done is tank the US standings in education when compared to the rest of the world.

There is no good reason why the US shouldn't be #1 in everything, and put forth the effort to make that happen.

Quote

Trumps twitter game, leads news cycles & sometimes it just gets (usually the media) to put their foot in mouth.  you may not particularly appreciate the presentation, but overwhelmingly it is an effective tool for him to talk past the filters & go direct.  i hope he keeps up the practice.

Exactly, Trump won the election in part to his active trolling on Twitter because he trolled his way to the Republican nominee because the news media just couldn't leave him alone.

1 hour ago, cossieuk said:

The Boy Scouts of America burn flags all the time.  In fact they have a ceremony where they retire old flags and often burn them.  Would be really weird if they lost their citizenship for doing that. 

There's a very big difference between disposal of a worn flag (which is what the Boy Scouts do) and burning one in protest.

The disposal process is actually very respectful of the flag, the latter is not.  The lack of respect is the key here.

Quote

I just dont understand the relationship many Americans have with their flag.  If someone was to burn my countries flag, either the Saltire or the Union flag, I would not care at all.  Getting upset about a bit of coloured cloth is just beyond me

It's a symbol of the US, much like the Queen and her royal family are a symbol of the UK.

How well would it go over in London if someone burned an epitaph of the Queen in a public square?

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7 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

Prove it, or you're a fool talking about things they don't know.

Prove what, that it is full of contradictions - http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm

or that it is full of lies - http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/22/5-massive-lies-the-bible-tells-about-jesus-5769183/.

22 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

There's a very big difference between disposal of a worn flag (which is what the Boy Scouts do) and burning one in protest.

The disposal process is actually very respectful of the flag, the latter is not.  The lack of respect is the key here.

 

Trump clearly said nobody should be allowed to do it, not only people doing it respectfully can do it.  

25 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

It's a symbol of the US, much like the Queen and her royal family are a symbol of the UK.

How well would it go over in London if someone burned an epitaph of the Queen in a public square?

Honestly I would not care.  Not everyone loves the Queen or the Royal family.  In fact their is a growing number of people that want rid of the Monarchy.

 

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26 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Prove what, that it is full of contradictions - http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm

Half of those examples can be explained away with simple rounding.  Bear in mind that people wrote the Bible, and people can make mistakes in counting.  The Bible is better thought of as a library chronicling the ancient Hebrews up to the time of Jesus combined with the story of Jesus and letters of His followers after the death of Jesus.  Keep in mind that the contributors are spanning several thousands of years, with some parts likely coming from oral tradition before being written down, and the Hebrews liked to exaggerate to get a point across (same with repetition), so exact historical accuracy can be dubious in some spots, but that's not what the Bible is intended to be used as.

Rather, the Bible is intended to be a spiritual guide, so this is more of a case of "you're doing it wrong, RTFM".

It's also why it doesn't conflict with science.

26 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

I'll have to go digging for this one, but the Romans did record that they executed a Jesus of Nazareth.  Also, there's an entire literacy thing, as many may have witnessed the events, but how many would have recorded it at the time?

To say that "none" exist, rather than "no known" is a pretty big difference, as the former is an absolute, while the latter indicates that it may have, but there's no evidence to date that corroborates.

Also, that reads like an opinion article, so there's no links (or indication of research for that matter) to back up what the article was saying.  The only reference is to a book, that when the reviews are skimmed on Amazon, is giving the impression that it's trying to force a conclusion from shaky evidence.

In other words: Please try again.

26 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Trump clearly said nobody should be allowed to do it, not only people doing it respectfully can do it.  

The tweet also started a discussion, as (shown by Hillary's attempt back in '05).  In all seriousness, I doubt that law would ever pass through Congress given the First Amendment, and if it did, the Supreme Court would probably strike it down.  I know the ACLU would definitely fight hard to kill it if it did pass, so it's probably not going to be around long should that law ever pass.

Again, Trump's trolling - and we're back to the social media stuff that I've already said I'm going to give him a pass on it.

26 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Honestly I would not care.  Not everyone loves the Queen or the Royal family.  In fact their is a growing number of people that want rid of the Monarchy.

Ok, bad example then >.>

Point is to some these flags are very symbolic of the US, and burning them in a disrespectful manner is considered offensive.

That and people keep lighting themselves on fire when they do burn flags, so there's a public safety concern with the act as well.

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25 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Half of those examples can be explained away with simple rounding.  Bear in mind that people wrote the Bible, and people can make mistakes in counting.  The Bible is better thought of as a library chronicling the ancient Hebrews up to the time of Jesus combined with the story of Jesus and letters of His followers after the death of Jesus.  Keep in mind that the contributors are spanning several thousands of years, with some parts likely coming from oral tradition before being written down, and the Hebrews liked to exaggerate to get a point across (same with repetition), so exact historical accuracy can be dubious in some spots, but that's not what the Bible is intended to be used as.

 

But half cant, so full on contradictions.  Also the Bible is the word of God, so why didnt he correct the people that made the mistakes.  Also the Bible is an editied collection of stories picked by the Vatican.  There are many books that didnt make the final cut, including 1 that had dragons that retired when a baby Jesus came before them.

29 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

Point is to some these flags are very symbolic of the US, and burning them in a disrespectful manner is considered offensive.

That and people keep lighting themselves on fire when they do burn flags, so there's a public safety concern with the act as well.

Perhaps Americans feel what they do for their flag as it is a symbol of their short history.  There is so much where I live that is much older then the US, there is even a house that was built in 1471, before Columbus set sail and didnt discover America.

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On 9.12.2016 at 0:56 AM, Almagnus1 said:

We should do more to teach about religion in school - otherwise we're promoting the religion of Atheism/Agnosticism.

And... that would be an issue, because?

SNy

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13 minutes ago, SNy said:

And... that would be an issue, because?

SNy

It scares people of religion that people can live a normal happy fulfilled life without their God

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2 hours ago, cossieuk said:

But half cant, so full on contradictions.  Also the Bible is the word of God, so why didnt he correct the people that made the mistakes.  Also the Bible is an editied collection of stories picked by the Vatican.  There are many books that didnt make the final cut, including 1 that had dragons that retired when a baby Jesus came before them.

Then explain why the Old Testament of the protestant Bible matches the Jewish Bible...

2 hours ago, cossieuk said:

Perhaps Americans feel what they do for their flag as it is a symbol of their short history.

And we've had a bigger impact on the world than your has been nation ever had.

Not to mention we bailed your asses out of two World Wars after kicking you off of our continent TWICE.

2 hours ago, cossieuk said:

There is so much where I live that is much older then the US, there is even a house that was built in 1471, before Columbus set sail and didnt discover America.

You mean when the Vikings found America a few centuries before Columbus, or the Native Americans long before that?

You need to learn your history....

2 hours ago, SNy said:

And... that would be an issue, because?

SNy

You're promoting one religion over another, which is actually in violation of:

Quote

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

1 hour ago, cossieuk said:

It scares people of religion that people can live a normal happy fulfilled life without their God

Oh wow, it's another atheist/agnostic with a superiority complex that lacks the ability to doubt if their position is right.

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2 hours ago, Papi said:

How is living a life free of religion...considered a religion?

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Quote

4:  a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

You need faith for math and science to work, as you must make certain assumptions upon which everything else is built, and if you do not have faith that those assumptions are accurate and valid, the entire thing falls apart.

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

You need faith for math and science to work, as you must make certain assumptions upon which everything else is built, and if you do not have faith that those assumptions are accurate and valid, the entire thing falls apart.

You've given the phrase "grasping for straws" a whole new meaning.  Faith in math or science is built on empirical evidence...I'm hoping I don't have to explain the contrast when comparing it to faith in regards to religion.  I guess if you want to dig down to the bottom of an online list of possible definitions of a word and use it to fit your narrative, that is your choice.  But the absence of religion is most definitely not a religion in of itself.  As before, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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I love the argument that not having a religion is equally a religion, it cheers me up and validates my opinion about some trump supporters intelligence

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40 minutes ago, Papi said:

You've given the phrase "grasping for straws" a whole new meaning.  Faith in math or science is built on empirical evidence...I'm hoping I don't have to explain the contrast when comparing it to faith in regards to religion.  I guess if you want to dig down to the bottom of an online list of possible definitions of a word and use it to fit your narrative, that is your choice.  But the absence of religion is most definitely not a religion in of itself.  As before, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Apparently you know less of math and science that I do...

Very well...

First, go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_arithmetic

That theory must be true, or the entire number system falls apart.  Without the number system underpinning all of math and science, they fall apart.

This means that you must have faith that the above theory is true.  Note that it's a theory, not a law, because it cannot be proven.

Ergo https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Quote

b (1) :  firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) :  complete trust

That's where faith plays a part in science.

That should also be obvious to anyone that knows anything at all about math and science.

I don't need a narrative when I can point at the theories themselves, and show that many assumptions are needed to create what we know in math and science.  If you'd like for me to continue with this, I can.

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10 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Apparently you know less of math and science that I do...

Very well...

First, go read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_arithmetic

That theory must be true, or the entire number system falls apart.  Without the number system underpinning all of math and science, they fall apart.

This means that you must have faith that the above theory is true.  Note that it's a theory, not a law, because it cannot be proven.

Ergo https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

That's where faith plays a part in science.

That should also be obvious to anyone that knows anything at all about math and science.

I don't need a narrative when I can point at the theories themselves, and show that many assumptions are needed to create what we know in math and science.  If you'd like for me to continue with this, I can.

Yeah, I think you've already proven you (think) know more about everything than anyone.

The original statement was about religion, not faith.  You can apply the word faith to just about everything.  But religion has a very specific origin.

But I'm glad you've mastered the art of using Google.  Keep reaching.

Edited by Papi
typo

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7 minutes ago, Papi said:

Yeah, I think you've already proven you (think) know more about everything than anyone.

The original statement was about religion, not faith.  You can apply the word faith to just about everything.  But religion has a very specific origin.

But I'm glad you've mastered the art of using Google.  Keep reaching.

Either that or I've completely above your education level, and this discussion is so far out of your comfort zone that you have to devolve to insults at this point, and you're just too ashamed to admit it - exactly the behavior I expect from a libtard.

Also, if you are really sincere about wanting to agree to disagree (which is coming across as hollow words by this point), why do you keep trying to counter what I'm saying?

That's not agreeing to disagreeing, that's continuing the discussion.

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Having problems quoting on my phone, just wanted to mention that scientific theory still requires proof and evidence, not faith. Let's not mix up the scientific use of the word theory and the general use. Scientific theories remain theories and not laws because, in spite of all the evidence and proof about the theory science is open to the idea that at some point in the future new evidence may come to light. Scientific theory doesn't mean that there is a lack of proof

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1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Either that or I've completely above your education level, and this discussion is so far out of your comfort zone that you have to devolve to insults at this point, and you're just too ashamed to admit it - exactly the behavior I expect from a libtard.

 

Don't be a hypocrite.  You trying to lecture anyone on "devolving to insults" is laughable.  It's plain and simple, you can't--with any intelligence anyway--back up your argument about non-belief in a religion being a religion itself so you deflect by showing your mastery of Google to give us the definition of "faith" (which was never part of the discussion) and how you think it applies to math and science.   You know you're reaching, but as you seem incapable of admitting when you are wrong and can't resist having the last word, I full expect another not-so-clever retort to follow.

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