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LasraelLarson

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Yeah, I'm not sure how well some of the nuances of the US transfers to other countries, especially since different geographical areas have a pretty diverse cost of living, so a federal minimum wage doesn't make much sense.  Please try to keep in mind that the continental US is about as big as most of Europe.

Even with the living expenses, we basically have to have a car because we're so spread out (going by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_area 37 of our States have more land area than the UK according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom ).  As the US is between 1-2 orders of magnitude bigger than the UK, that means that how things like utilities function completely different because we're probably our population density probably has more in common with Australia than the UK, especially considering that both the US and Australia have these large areas of land in the West where there isn't a human to be found for miles.

That's not even touching cultural differences, but the end result is that it's a lot easier to do fully government ran programs in the UK or Australia, it becomes a bit harder to do the same in the US because everything scales up.  That also ties into minimum wage as well, because what works in UK wouldn't fly in the States because of everything else that must be factored in, especially when there's some pretty wild cost of living variances (like my salary in Seattle would be about halved if I lived in other areas of the US), which is not something I would expect to see in other countries (at least, not to that degree).

1 hour ago, JRonnie said:

As for minimum wages, here in Australia (due to how strong unions are here) we have the highest nominal minimum wage in the entire world.  It's currently $17.70 Australian an hour which equates to 10.70 UK Pounds or $13.30 US an hour.  The result of this has been the evisceration of the Australian manufacturing sector. It's quite simply too expensive to make almost anything here and we end up relying on the mining sector and ever increasing government spending (and growing debt) to maintain the economy.  

We also have one of the lowest tax rates of low income earners in the world (and one of the highest rates on high income earners).  We also have free health care.  Despite all this, people still complain bitterly about how bad they have it here.  It makes me sick to be honest.

That's a lot of what I've seen happen with the minimum wage raises.  It gives a momentary buzz cause it temporarily fixes the issue, then the economy corrects the minimum wage earners back down into the gutter, while killing off small businesses in the process.

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12 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's not even touching cultural differences, but the end result is that it's a lot easier to do fully government ran programs in the UK or Australia, it becomes a bit harder to do the same in the US because everything scales up. 

That's why states should be treated as individual countries. It's the same reason why the EU didn't work, since it was trying to give everyone the same rules.

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32 minutes ago, Doro said:

That's why states should be treated as individual countries. It's the same reason why the EU didn't work, since it was trying to give everyone the same rules.

Essentially, the reason why the argument of States rights vs Federal rights is so critical to the US functioning correctly.

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A large number of Americans have to work multiple jobs and much more than 40 hours a week to afford even a basic life with nothing special.  That's not OK.

Minimum wage might improve that. Effectively companies have better communication and deliberately drive wages to the bottom. In an unfair contest. And unions are a joke in the U.S. 

The underlying problem is of course that there are too many people competing for the easier jobs. They compete against each other inside the legal workforce in the U.S., they compete against immigrants and they are, as a group, under pressure from other countries' basic workforce.

Education is obvious. For every person who can take a more demanding job you don't only help that person. You also help that other person who stays in the basic bracket but now has less competition.

As others have mentioned, financial mistakes contribute. You pile up a bunch of debt from a deal gone wrong, that's how you end up having to do another job.

Other items I observed: obscene cost of childcare in the US. Student loans. Liability traps, e.g. the joke of a car insurance system here. Financial traps around healthcare. All in the realms of society to solve.

 

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2 hours ago, Darmokk said:

A large number of Americans have to work multiple jobs and much more than 40 hours a week to afford even a basic life with nothing special.  That's not OK.

Half of that is because they don't value education as well as they should.  Sometimes it's also the small business owner that's scared stiff of hiring people (because of the liability and also because it's prohibitively expensive), so they must work insane hours per week to cover the lack of labor.  However, even being a small business owner doesn't necessarily make you rich - as most are generally barely scraping by.

However, if we're talking about a job at Walmart... then the real question is why does a 40 year old need to have an entry level job?

For those that don't value education, fuck them, and let them rot in their multiple jobs.

2 hours ago, Darmokk said:

Minimum wage might improve that. Effectively companies have better communication and deliberately drive wages to the bottom. In an unfair contest. And unions are a joke in the U.S. 

Most corporations don't actually want to do this, as they understand that better pay = better talent.

Show me an actual industry where there's job competition where this is true.

2 hours ago, Darmokk said:

The underlying problem is of course that there are too many people competing for the easier jobs. They compete against each other inside the legal workforce in the U.S., they compete against immigrants and they are, as a group, under pressure from other countries' basic workforce.

The real problem with the illegal immigrants is that their employers can pay them next to nothing because they can always threaten deportation.

Basically, they get the modern equivalent of slave labor - which is why I'm all for either naturalizing the good ones or shipping them all back.

2 hours ago, Darmokk said:

Education is obvious. For every person who can take a more demanding job you don't only help that person. You also help that other person who stays in the basic bracket but now has less competition.

Yeah, but only if they want to complete a degree.  Many are just happy sitting in the hell they've created and bemoaning their own stupid mistakes.

2 hours ago, Darmokk said:

As others have mentioned, financial mistakes contribute. You pile up a bunch of debt from a deal gone wrong, that's how you end up having to do another job.

Or you get people that are financially stupid... like someone who's spending 4-5k/year on computer games when they're only making 30k.

Most "deals gone wrong" that make people poor are really "idiots fell for a scam".

2 hours ago, Darmokk said:

Other items I observed: obscene cost of childcare in the US. Student loans. Liability traps, e.g. the joke of a car insurance system here. Financial traps around healthcare. All in the realms of society to solve.

I'm gonna break apart this ramble, because you're even less coherent than your normal liberal self....

Childcare can be mitigated if a parent is able to stay at home with the kid, but that requires one person to make enough to cover the household.

Student debt needs to be looked at, as saddling a college graduate (even one with a STEM degree) with 20k+debt isn't a good thing.

And the same that's been said about health care can be said about car insurance >.>

Healthcare in this country's got costs that are out of whack, so what are you really referring to here?

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

snip

I take it you live in Germany. You don't seem to have a clue about how 'this' works in North America. I lived in The Netherlands for 28 years before moving to Canada, where I have lived now for 20 years. Let me enlighten you a little. Darmokk is spot on,

Most of North America now has a service industry. A lot of university and even college graduates find that there are no jobs at their level. There is very high competition for the entry level positions. When my daughter, who at that time was in university, started handing out resumes to find a part time position, she handed out 150 resumes and got 1 job interview. That's how high the competition is. And then we are not even talking about better paying positions. Even newspaper delivery, which used to be a elementary/high school student's after school job-on-the-side has now become attractive to those who can't find regular employment. I kid you not.

Lots of people value education here and they value it so much that they do indeed rack up debt - much more than your 20k btw. It used to be THE way to a decent paying job with a pension. Well guess what? Those jobs no longer exist here the way they used to do. There has been a real shift over the last 20 years. We have entire regions where all the industry is gone... abroad - NAFTA played a huge role in that. Where the only jobs that have come in their place are those sucky part time jobs at fast food restaurants, call centres, and stores like Walmart. There is no need for employees with skills, talents, papers. When you want to work there you have to indicate that you are willing to work ALL hours (in the USA this is often 24/7) and that you will be available at all the other hours you are not scheduled in for. Often, in Canada, this results in weekly shifts below a total of 28 hrs, because when your weekly average gets above that the employer has to start paying benefits: towards medical insurance for example. Thus, many people work less than 28/week - but not by choice. At grocery stores and bigger stores this can go as low as 12 hrs/week... as long as you are available during peek times: Christmas and Easter. Then you get 'overworked'.

In the past, I say 20 years ago and longer, students would find good paying summer jobs that would pay for their tuition and living expenses for the rest of the year - no more - the hourly wage has plummeted and the tuition/living expenses have exploded. This was a shocker for many. Because I am an immigrant it has taken me a long time to understand what was going on here. Even the teachers in school were giving out the wrong advice: 'go to university' when my kids were in high school. But already then it were no longer the university degrees that resulted in jobs. It were the college diplomas - which many people were looking down on at the time because these were 'the trades' - skilled labor - and no white colour jobs.

Parents staying at home to prevent child care expenses ... that is a luxury only the few can afford. In Canada, most people work part-time minimum wage jobs and that will not cover the expenses for a family. So both parents work and they hardly make ends meet. At least 20% of the Canadian children live under the poverty level. It's worse in the USA. At least Canada has a universal health care system, although that excludes the dentist and medication. In the USA you now have to pay for emergency care - which always used to be free. What Darmokk writes about people in the USA working much more than 40 hrs/week is true, because their minimum wage is probably only half of what it is here. So imagine how bad it is in the USA. Especially in cities like Detroit and Chicago, where no industry is left.

There is a real split between rich and poor, with the middle class eroding while I type this.

When you get sick here, you don't get paid. It's that simple. I see people working who are injured and who can't afford to heal at home because they can't afford the rent when they don't work.

40 year olds (or older) who get laid off because the factory where they are working is closing do indeed end up applying for entry level jobs. We have a lot of seniors working too, because their pensions are not enough to make ends meet.

So 'thank you' for saying 'fuck you' and 'let them rot in their multiple jobs'. I think it's quite stupid to show your ignorance like that. Be happy you don't live here. This is daily reality for a huge part of the population of this vast continent and this has a lot to do with governments who believe in not interfering with labor laws that allow for workers to be used and abused.

You forget that health care, insurance costs (scams) etc., and many of the other issues you commented on are structural issues that our whole continent is affected by, not only those who make wrong choices. You then squarely blame the individual, where there really are not many options left anymore. For many young adults who have worked hard in school, this puts a real negative spin on how they look at their futures and is quite demotivating.

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3 hours ago, Tarantula said:

I take it you live in Germany. You don't seem to have a clue about how 'this' works in North America. I lived in The Netherlands for 28 years before moving to Canada, where I have lived now for 20 years. Let me enlighten you a little. Darmokk is spot on,

Bullshit, I live in Seattle, WA.

I'm a natural born US Citizen, with both parents and grandparents as natural born Americans as well.  I can trace part of my Dad's side of the family all the way back to a Revolutionary War veteran.

So you can take the rest of your pretentious post and fuck off.

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5 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Half of that is because they don't value education as well as they should.  Sometimes it's also the small business owner that's scared stiff of hiring people (because of the liability and also because it's prohibitively expensive), so they must work insane hours per week to cover the lack of labor.  However, even being a small business owner doesn't necessarily make you rich - as most are generally barely scraping by.

However, if we're talking about a job at Walmart... then the real question is why does a 40 year old need to have an entry level job?

For those that don't value education, fuck them, and let them rot in their multiple jobs.

Most corporations don't actually want to do this, as they understand that better pay = better talent.

Show me an actual industry where there's job competition where this is true.

The real problem with the illegal immigrants is that their employers can pay them next to nothing because they can always threaten deportation.

Basically, they get the modern equivalent of slave labor - which is why I'm all for either naturalizing the good ones or shipping them all back.

Yeah, but only if they want to complete a degree.  Many are just happy sitting in the hell they've created and bemoaning their own stupid mistakes.

Or you get people that are financially stupid... like someone who's spending 4-5k/year on computer games when they're only making 30k.

Most "deals gone wrong" that make people poor are really "idiots fell for a scam".

I'm gonna break apart this ramble, because you're even less coherent than your normal liberal self....

Childcare can be mitigated if a parent is able to stay at home with the kid, but that requires one person to make enough to cover the household.

Student debt needs to be looked at, as saddling a college graduate (even one with a STEM degree) with 20k+debt isn't a good thing.

And the same that's been said about health care can be said about car insurance >.>

Healthcare in this country's got costs that are out of whack, so what are you really referring to here?

The education system here is arguable excluding a lot of people who want an education and would work hard for it to lead somewhere.

The childcare cost in the US, at least in Boston, Silicon Valley etc is astronomically high, compared to other countries. I know because I know fresh parents here and in Germany. It is simply driven up to the maximum you can charge (which is a typical Boston person's full income, which is what they lose if one parent stays home).

Financial stupidity is partially based on lack of education. Lack of critical thinking, lack of basic math skills. Not all, but some or many. Outright financial irresponsibility is also not more common to poor or uneducated people. Financial ruin from being fooled due to lack of education is.

Car insurance is fundamentally different from health insurance. Just for starters you cannot allow people to not get health insurance when they are young and then get it when their health fails due to age.  For a car there is no problem with simply not owning a car. Then getting a car at a random point in time later might carry a higher insurance premium, but the difference is nowhere near to what the risk difference for health insurance is.

Illegal immigrants staying illegal is a big problem. As you say they drive down not only wages but work conditions. Same with those stupid H1B visa that don't allow job change - it is the American employees that suffer, because now they have to compete with H1B holders who get blackmailed. Illegal immigrants also pose a big problem for transportation. Driving a car should only be done with a proper license and insurance. If you make those unavailable to some people, at the same time create a huge need (let's say dad needs to get kids stuff done in a rural area - while working 2-3 jobs) you create risk for health and finances for everybody.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Doro said:

You have to watch this. It's so, so sweet. A panel of what seem to be the mentally ill having a breakdown throughout the live election results.

I couldn't even make up half of the shit they rant about after losing.

Yeah, I did have problems coping with them throwing fits and ramble incoherently.

The most fascinating thing was how they managed to switch from admiration and praise for all things Clinton to sudden verbal abuse and hatred for those same things, without Clinton doing a thing, just courtesy of votes being counted. Also of course, the superiority complex of some and how they show their true faces. Priceless.

SNy

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58 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

The education system here is arguable excluding a lot of people who want an education and would work hard for it to lead somewhere.

There's a lot of stuff relating to Pell grants, and how student loans are handled that really do raise a lot of questions - aside from the general cost of it all.

While I realize this is basically asking for a free service, but there really needs to be a system that does loan forgiveness (such as my Comp Sci degree) and leaves graduates that had to take on debt to get a degree debt free.  That would definitely free up a lot of money per month which would go back into the economy, rather than straight to the banks - while also providing an incentive to complete certain degrees.

58 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

The childcare cost in the US, at least in Boston, Silicon Valley etc is astronomically high, compared to other countries. I know because I know fresh parents here and in Germany. It is simply driven up to the maximum you can charge (which is a typical Boston person's full income, which is what they lose if one parent stays home).

There's a lot to the child care thing.

I was fortunate enough to have Dad be the breadwinner for the family as the Air Force provided enough to cover Mom staying home, while Dad's career post AF retirement was successful enough that Mom didn't need to work until we were largely gone from the house.  I realize that not everyone has that luxury, and not all jobs have as good of a work/life balance as my current one does - so my perspective on this is really, really skewered.

58 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

Financial stupidity is partially based on lack of education. Lack of critical thinking, lack of basic math skills. Not all, but some or many. Outright financial irresponsibility is also not more common to poor or uneducated people. Financial ruin from being fooled due to lack of education is.

It really comes down to why people are poor, and how we can prevent that.

That said, I'm not sure there's sufficient motivation for laziness, and I know that's a factor here.

58 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

Car insurance is fundamentally different from health insurance. Just for starters you cannot allow people to not get health insurance when they are young and then get it when their health fails due to age.  For a car there is no problem with simply not owning a car. Then getting a car at a random point in time later might carry a higher insurance premium, but the difference is nowhere near to what the risk difference for health insurance is.

Some areas of the country (like Colorado) a car is mandatory because it takes you 15 minutes (at minimum) to go anywhere because things are so spread out.

58 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

Illegal immigrants staying illegal is a big problem. As you say they drive down not only wages but work conditions. Same with those stupid H1B visa that don't allow job change - it is the American employees that suffer, because now they have to compete with H1B holders who get blackmailed. Illegal immigrants also pose a big problem for transportation.

Counterpoint:

I'm in the tech industry, and many of my colleagues hold H1B visas (which also includes Canadians), and they are getting imported because the US is not producing enough people to fill positions.

There's a lot of societal issues in play with this, part of it is all of the SJW nonsense manifesting in the colleges (like safe spaces and trigger warnings), another part is a group of people so scared of failing that they will not take the risks needed to just go through the engineering colleges, and then there's the lack of incetivizing people to complete STEM degrees.

58 minutes ago, Darmokk said:

Driving a car should only be done with a proper license and insurance. If you make those unavailable to some people, at the same time create a huge need (let's say dad needs to get kids stuff done in a rural area - while working 2-3 jobs) you create risk for health and finances for everybody.

Better question is why does someone in a rural area need to work 2-3 jobs (or for that matter, why does someone need to work that much to begin with?)

I have family in Iowa, and I know part of this is Monsanto screwing with the farmers.  Another part is having to compete against foreign food producers while having to obey the US regulations that the foreigners don't have to.  The entire situation's really a mess.

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15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

Yeah, but only if they want to complete a degree.  Many are just happy sitting in the hell they've created and bemoaning their own stupid mistakes.

 

Not every well paid job requires a degree, some people are better suited to skill based training. Skilled work such as eg. electrical, plumbing, carpentry, mechanic pays reasonably well (at least here in the UK) and requires practical training. Better apprenticeship and training schemes would help people who are not suited to an intellectual\theoretical school\college based education acquire skills that can still provide them with reasonable pay and job satisfaction.

Education isn't just about getting good at maths, english and science and then getting a degree. Education can be about acquiring any skill

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15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Bullshit, I live in Seattle, WA.

I'm a natural born US Citizen, with both parents and grandparents as natural born Americans as well.  I can trace part of my Dad's side of the family all the way back to a Revolutionary War veteran.

So you can take the rest of your pretentious post and fuck off.

Your anger speaks volumes. So does your attitude. Good luck with that.

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Skill and talent based training and then getting into jobs here in the US is also more broken than it is in Germany.

Electricians for example are one of my favorite things to nag.  The people who make it inside the circle of approved, insurable, certified electricians here in New England are have solid 0% understanding of the physics behind electricity, to a dangerous degree. They get shielded from people who are more competent or careful by The System. There are few enough of them that there is virtually no competition (more work than the circle can/will do), and complaining about one or refusing to pay for something clearly broken makes all of them refuse to work for you.

It is a bit like unions in the US. Instead of fighting for the workers as a group they simply shield those workers in the union from those without.

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On 11/15/2016 at 4:11 PM, Doro said:

You have to watch this. It's so, so sweet. A panel of what seem to be the mentally ill having a breakdown throughout the live election results.

*snip "Young Turks vid Election meltdown."

I couldn't even make up half of the shit they rant about after losing.

part in parcel of the echo chamber - safe space - invested in your own bullshit mentality that is infecting an uncomfortably large portion of the left from college & University campuses to mainstream news & media.  there were plenty of meltdowns that night as the conformation bias of censored information & skewed data got blasted with reality.

& now that all that funded investment in a narrative, didn't pay off was there much in the way of reflection?  ...very little, but they have doubled down hard.  & it will continue to cost the democratic party for the near and foreseeable future.

only the fringy-est lunatic left elements want to reset now (the last people who should be making that move) & the current power graspers aren't letting go.  if they continue to invest in stopping Trump, rather than preparing for 4 years from now, or even the next (Gov body) elections...  they won't perform when it counts & lose even more ground.

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4 hours ago, Tarantula said:

Your anger speaks volumes. So does your attitude. Good luck with that.

So does your arrogance.

Be gone, troll.

3 hours ago, Darmokk said:

Skill and talent based training and then getting into jobs here in the US is also more broken than it is in Germany.

Electricians for example are one of my favorite things to nag.  The people who make it inside the circle of approved, insurable, certified electricians here in New England are have solid 0% understanding of the physics behind electricity, to a dangerous degree. They get shielded from people who are more competent or careful by The System. There are few enough of them that there is virtually no competition (more work than the circle can/will do), and complaining about one or refusing to pay for something clearly broken makes all of them refuse to work for you.

It is a bit like unions in the US. Instead of fighting for the workers as a group they simply shield those workers in the union from those without.

That's one of the many reasons why I'm not sure unions are as necessary now with the prevalence of social media and the ability for someone to just YouTube bad situations.  The entire thing with Black Lives matters showing police brutality shows that - at least until the movement went off the rails that is >.>

2 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

part in parcel of the echo chamber - safe space - invested in your own bullshit mentality that is infecting an uncomfortably large portion of the left from college & University campuses to mainstream news & media.  there were plenty of meltdowns that night as the conformation bias of censored information & skewed data got blasted with reality.

& now that all that funded investment in a narrative, didn't pay off was there much in the way of reflection?  ...very little, but they have doubled down hard.  & it will continue to cost the democratic party for the near and foreseeable future.

only the fringy-est lunatic left elements want to reset now (the last people who should be making that move) & the current power graspers aren't letting go.  if they continue to invest in stopping Trump, rather than preparing for 4 years from now, or even the next (Gov body) elections...  they won't perform when it counts & lose even more ground.

That's what happens when you replace the media with a propaganda machine, and why we should step away from the primary "news" networks.  I hope most of the country is starting to see the media for what it truly is, but I'm not going to hold out hope for that bunch of sheep.

The real problem is if we start seeing the Green and Libertarian parties creep into the Democratic party power vacuum, and the Green and Libertarian parties aren't mainstream enough to take ground from the Republicans - which would lead to a de facto majority.  While I don't anticipate that with the Libertarian party, the concern there isn't that the Republicans are taking over, it's that the opposition stays on the fringe and can't provide an ideological challenge to the Republicans.

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29 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

The entire thing with Black Lives matters showing police brutality shows that - at least until the movement went off the rails that is >.>

Not sure their movement was ever on the rails, really.

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13 minutes ago, Doro said:

Not sure their movement was ever on the rails, really.

Their initial point about police brutality brought the issue to the forefront - because police brutality should never be an issue.  But like most things, there's a lot of factors causing and/or caused by the police brutality issue.

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34 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's what happens when you replace the media with a propaganda machine, and why we should step away from the primary "news" networks.  I hope most of the country is starting to see the media for what it truly is, but I'm not going to hold out hope for that bunch of sheep.

indeed, various narratives have been bought and paid for, hence the doubling down.

it didn't win the electoral college... why is it going to work this time?

they are holding on to the popular vote narrative (thanx California & ONLY California) but if popular vote was the vehicle IN PLACE prior to the election (not post, you morons) do you really think Trump would have hammered swing states with multiple daily rallies, or run the commercials he did, in the markets he did, etc. etc.  nope. not a chance. he had the winning game in play & got the intended outcome as a result.

so much money sunk on the left, invested in an outcome...  the sunken costs fallacy is in full effect.  that briefcase of ideas they are drawing from will continue to lose.  the hysteria never paid off.  yet the wheels of the narrative keep rolling on & they'll be fully over the cliff when the brakes will be of no more use.

34 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

The real problem is if we start seeing the Green and Libertarian parties creep into the Democratic party power vacuum, and the Green and Libertarian parties aren't mainstream enough to take ground from the Republicans - which would lead to a de facto majority.  While I don't anticipate that with the Libertarian party, the concern there isn't that the Republicans are taking over, it's that the opposition stays on the fringe and can't provide an ideological challenge to the Republicans.

correct, that indeed will be a problem (especially the bolded/underlined emphasis i added.)  & because of basic momentum (even though it is not a wining momentum)  going off the cliff may be inevitable/unavoidable.

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Their initial point about police brutality brought the issue to the forefront - because police brutality should never be an issue.  But like most things, there's a lot of factors causing and/or caused by the police brutality issue.

But it was never about policy brutality as a whole (which is the same problem with most social movements, like feminism), it was only about it towards blacks. Which was ironic, considering the biggest killers of black people are other black people, not cops.

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6 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

correct, that indeed will be a problem (especially the bolded/underlined emphasis i added.)  & because of basic momentum (even though it is not a wining momentum)  going off the cliff may be inevitable/unavoidable.

Eh, I'm more concerned with the politicians entering into a group think bubble than going off the cliff.

At least the voters have enough sense not to elect a felon.

5 hours ago, Doro said:

But it was never about policy brutality as a whole (which is the same problem with most social movements, like feminism), it was only about it towards blacks. Which was ironic, considering the biggest killers of black people are other black people, not cops.

There's been enough local stories about the Seattle cops long enough that I'm wondering if we're not actually seeing symptoms of a larger (possibly systemic) issue.

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6 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

There's been enough local stories about the Seattle cops long enough that I'm wondering if we're not actually seeing symptoms of a larger (possibly systemic) issue.

I'm not sure there is. There's something like 12 million people arrested a year in the US. 30% of those are black. About 1,000 people are shot and killed by police a year (about 0.01% of arrests, though that is only the deaths, not the survivors). 25% of those are black. Which means black people are actually less likely to be shot by police during an arrest than other races. It might be worth mentioning that about 80% of those shot in total were armed in some fashion, but I couldn't find out what that percentage was for black people alone.

Sure, an argument could be made that for only 13% of the population, blacks being 30% of all arrested people is a bit unbalanced, and that must mean cops are targeting black people. Or, it's a case that, on average, black people commit more crimes than other races. Which is the same reason why 75% of all arrests are against males; on average, males commit more crime than females. I wouldn't say there's a systemic issue of cops against men, either. It just comes with the territory.

Obviously, there are cases where the cops have royally fucked up, killing unarmed people for absolutely no reason. But those are in the absolute minority of cases, and certainly not a systemic issue.

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

I'm not sure there is. There's something like 12 million people arrested a year in the US. 30% of those are black. About 1,000 people are shot and killed by police a year (about 0.01% of arrests, though that is only the deaths, not the survivors). 25% of those are black. Which means black people are actually less likely to be shot by police during an arrest than other races. It might be worth mentioning that about 80% of those shot in total were armed in some fashion, but I couldn't find out what that percentage was for black people alone.

Sure, an argument could be made that for only 13% of the population, blacks being 30% of all arrested people is a bit unbalanced, and that must mean cops are targeting black people. Or, it's a case that, on average, black people commit more crimes than other races. Which is the same reason why 75% of all arrests are against males; on average, males commit more crime than females. I wouldn't say there's a systemic issue of cops against men, either. It just comes with the territory.

Obviously, there are cases where the cops have royally fucked up, killing unarmed people for absolutely no reason. But those are in the absolute minority of cases, and certainly not a systemic issue.

Ok, need to clarify this...

I'm not referring specifically to police on black violence, but several incidents within the last few years of just general police brutality.  That's what I was referring to.

I'm also aware of the stats you've cited, and I do wonder if there's not something wrong with Black America, or (more likely) how Black America is integrating into the larger American society.

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21 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Ok, need to clarify this...

I'm not referring specifically to police on black violence, but several incidents within the last few years of just general police brutality.  That's what I was referring to.

I'm also aware of the stats you've cited, and I do wonder if there's not something wrong with Black America, or (more likely) how Black America is integrating into the larger American society.

Ah, I see. My bad.

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27 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

I realize this is from Fox (of all places), but:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/18/arizonas-presidential-electors-being-harassed-urged-not-to-cast-vote-for-trump.html

Really people?  Can't accept that Trump turned the map red and that Hillary lost yet?

They mention in there wanting to scrap the electoral college... as if that would help them. Trump got the majority of states. He would still win.

Honestly, the amount of hypocrisy and aggression shown from the far left is incredible. I never expected to get so much material to enjoy. I want him in again next elections!

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