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4 hours ago, Laurinaohtar said:

I heard many say Ireland, can't say I heard anyone say Canada? I have applied for an Irish passport, I qualify through grandparents, mostly just to beat queues at airports so I can still use the "in the EU queue"

 

25 minutes ago, Doro said:

Oh you missed out on all the fun!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-result-brexit-moving-to-canada_uk_576d1798e4b08d2c56390720

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36730174

http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/uk-eu-brexit-vote-move-to-canada-1.3651308

They're very passionate about a lot of things, those on the far left, but they just aren't keen to actually put it into practice.

Lena Dunham wanted to move to Canada...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2016/11/11/lena-dunham-blames-self-hating-white-women-violent-privilege-trump-victory/

Canada needs a wall.

 

Edit: Don Cherry is something of a Canadian icon... can't explain him really as you would have to have watched him for 40 years or so.

Quote

The left wing kook entertainers and the left wing weirdo’s in the media in the US have said if Trump wins the presidency they will move to Canada. Please, we have enough of these type here now

From this article: http://www.torontosun.com/2016/11/10/no-thanks-lena-dunham-canadians-tell-american-celebrities-to-stay-home

He is also a sharp dressed man... https://www.google.ca/search?q=don+cherry&biw=1920&bih=1093&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGlvOeyKHQAhVE5SYKHdN8BFIQiR4ImQE#tbm=isch&q=don+cherry+suits

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1 hour ago, fittybolger said:

Funny you should mention it, Fitty.

http://brickingitforcanada.com/

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Lies work. Simple. 

I don't pretend to have a very deep knowledge of America. Instinctively I tend to believe the facts, as told by people of authority on subjects my knowledge is not deep or detailed. Until they are proven liars of course. 

In his first words as President Elect, Trump boasted that his meeting with Obama was scheduled for 10-15 minutes and lasted almost an hour and a half. I deduced from it, that they went along famously, way better that expected, and was filled with hope for the future.

Checked this "fact" as well as I could. Not going to pay attention to this pathological liar's saliva dripping any more, but I sure understand how it works with people "en masse". It works like a charm. 

America is a great country - it survived an imbecile in office, it will survive a psycho. Not so sure about the rest of the world.  

Getting away form this topic. 

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14 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's what a lot of the Republicans saw a mile away, and why most fought it.

IMO, we should have had government ran hospitals, clinics, and pharmacies that are free to use but sustained by taxes.  That would create a baseline that the for-profit hospitals can work from, while also getting costs down (because insurance isn't needed in the government run stuff), while also not turning insurance into an unusable mess.

However, the insurance lobby would have never let that fly - which is why the ACA is the giant cluster it is.

The issue with US healthcare is that it's just another facet of deeply engrained capitalism. If you make a few public hospitals for the poor, while the rich use the private ones, you end up with investors looking more at the private hospitals because they can squeeze more money out of it. The doctors all prefer the private ones because they can get paid more. You end up with a collapsing public health system (just like here in the UK with the NHS) that can't take the strain, as more and more professionals leave it for greener pastures. It's a snowball effect.

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20 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's what a lot of the Republicans saw a mile away, and why most fought it.

IMO, we should have had government ran hospitals, clinics, and pharmacies that are free to use but sustained by taxes.  That would create a baseline that the for-profit hospitals can work from, while also getting costs down (because insurance isn't needed in the government run stuff), while also not turning insurance into an unusable mess.

However, the insurance lobby would have never let that fly - which is why the ACA is the giant cluster it is.

People generally don't like that plan because a government agency can waste more money than a for-profit agency would fork off as profits.

Plus a government agency cannot have competition but a for-profit company can. Not right now, but theoretically.

Another big problem I see is that many healthcare companies, the hospitals, the landlords and the insurances are all separate companies that should haggle with each other. But at the end of the shareholder chain you often find the same owning parties or individuals that hold share in more than one or all of those people in the chain. It isn't in their interest to crack down on the respective supplier's prices since they also own parts of that supplier.

That is particular bad when is comes to hospital and hospital ground landlords. This is a big issue in the U.S. Although hospitals are not run by the government in e.g. Germany the ground they are standing on is usually owned by the people. Driving up lease cost in the former scenario is bad enough if the hospital was fighting back. But if the hospital and the landlord company are owned by the same people then why would they? They just pass the cost on to the consumer.

Obviously hospitals in the larger cities can pretty much never move house. There isn't even suitable space when you ignore whether it is occupied or not. Cost of a move with all the equipment and the months-long disruption of service/income is also prohibitive.

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16 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

And a great many of the hospitals are technical are regarded as non-profits for tax purposes, yet their real world behavior doesn't match their tax status.

There's a lot of problems in the medical area that need solving; however, Obamacare wasn't a good solution because it just created so many additional problems without addressing the issue of the costs of healthcare.  That's something insurance tends to hide because that's how insurance works.

Well, yes. 

The political problem here comes in when the Republicans have never specifically said what they would do instead. Obamacare is sold as the best we could do given the existing insane framework (although thrown a bit off target by political deals to make it pass). Trump (I'm not counting him as a republican) only went as far as mumbling something incoherent about states' rights as a fix - something the president doesn't have the power to do.

I bet we will see no significant changes to Obamacare in the next 4 years, for lack of alternatives. The republicans will claim that the previous administration locked it in too hard so that they don't have to touch it and can blame Obama. Then they are going to make a couple of steps to put the religious right's opinion into law or action so that they appease their voters.

Trump might take a good shot at get those people who drive up healthcare cost the most. A better shot than the Democrats would have. However, I think it is unlikely to be any better than a noisy token.

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On 11/13/2016 at 3:37 AM, Almagnus1 said:

That may not be a bad thing because too many got into the industry for the money, and many doctors make like 100k/year (or more).

The salaries of the medical profession are half the problem, as each medical personnel is extremely expensive.

Given how much work goes in to becoming a doctor, how difficult many of the specialties are, and the hours they work, I don't begrudge them a good salary at all.  It's very much a case of a job which not many people are capable or willing to do.

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1 hour ago, JRonnie said:

Given how much work goes in to becoming a doctor, how difficult many of the specialties are, and the hours they work, I don't begrudge them a good salary at all.  It's very much a case of a job which not many people are capable or willing to do.

When we live in a world where footballers get paid more than an entire hospital's worth of doctors, I'd be glad of a change in the pay scales.

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On 9-11-2016 at 5:26 PM, FundinStrongarm said:

Let's hope Trump or anyone doesn't follow the policies listed here. Yeesh. 2 is downright scary and 1and 3 are same ol' same ol' money grows on trees fantasy land. I'm sorry, but all that would be continuing in the wrong direction.

Yeah, and that's the problem.

Problem: People are poor because they don't have a job that pays enough and they don't have the intellectual capacity to learn for a better job. I think many of the so-called "angry white man" but also many of the "criminal" black people have this problem. 

How to solve this? You just rejected 3 from the 4 options I suggested and I said the 4th isn't a realistic option. So do you have a better idea?

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28 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

 

How to solve this? You just rejected 3 from the 4 options I suggested and I said the 4th isn't a realistic option. So do you have a better idea?

Increased minimum wage, better education\training\apprenticeship options for adults are a couple of options that immediately spring to mind.

Edit: Just seen that you mentioned minimum wage already, not sure why Fundin dismissed this, seems like a good idea

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Raising minimum wage simply prices low skill workers out of a job in many cases. Or lowers the number of hours of employment they get. It is the wrong direction.

 

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23 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

Yeah, and that's the problem.

Problem: People are poor because they don't have a job that pays enough and they don't have the intellectual capacity to learn for a better job. I think many of the so-called "angry white man" but also many of the "criminal" black people have this problem. 

How to solve this? You just rejected 3 from the 4 options I suggested and I said the 4th isn't a realistic option. So do you have a better idea?

I have a solution, though it's one that requires some adjustments in priorities.

The US spends something crazy like $600 billion on military. So, instead of the US wasting so much money on the military, sending soldiers and equipment halfway around the world to kill people who won't even make as much in one lifetime as is spent killing them, they cut the budget in half. $300 billion is instead funnelled straight in to programs to help the poor, like apprenticeships, food stamps, and even investment. There are roughly 45 million Americans in poverty, and even if we assume only a third of those are children, that's still $10k per year per person to the poor in an effort to get them back on their feet. After a few years, if the people are still unable to contribute, then they don't get any more help (prevents laziness or reliance on hand-outs).

And that's just cutting down the money spent on killing foreigners.

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26 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Speaking of which... perhaps something we should look into is free access to financial planners and financial coaches, as that would help alleviate some of the issues we're seeing.

I doubt it. Those motivated to see one are probably not making horrible choices and those not motivated won't go at any price. Might be a few corner cases it helps but most likely it would just be yet another money pit with many gaming the system at government expense which would end up being yet more government control micromanaging our lives.

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There aren't enough mid-to-high paying jobs out there for people. There's a reason there are minimum wage jobs, and they are also needed in any economy. In the UK, we had a situation that unless you were doing over 30 hours a week on minimum wage, it really wasn't worth taking the job, especially as a single person who is not a parent.

The Welfare system here has been too much of a safety net, and really, taking into account how the Government's lowered the benefit cap in recent years(it's just been lowered again), raising minimum wage is the only alternative. Then there's the National Living Wage if you are over 25, which is an increase of what it was for over 25's when it was the National Minimum Wage.

 

In the previous tax year(2015-2016), it was £6.70/hour for people aged 21 and over. This year, with the introduction of National Living Wage, it's £6.95/hour for 21-24 year olds, and £7.20/hour for 25+. That is significant. You work 40h/week, that's an extra £20 a week.

Not raising it is moronic as people would need to rely less(or not work multiple jobs)on benefits, which means not taking as much from the government. That money instead is used to bolster local economies the country over. People feeling forced to work multiple jobs(one of my colleagues, actually, as she is on NatLivWage)just to get by are taking jobs from people who haven't got one, leaving them reliant upon benefits. 

And no matter what anyone says, it isn't easy finding work for some of the people who have been on benefits for a long time. Being out of work + low-skill + no recent experience = Not gonna get work

 

4 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Raising minimum wage actually doesn't do anything other than drive inflation, because the people paying minimum wage drive up costs, and the rest of the economy just raises all the prices, ending up with people feeling a bit better that their still poor... without actually increasing any wealth.

Real solution is with education.  For the poor that are poor because of life taking a crap on them (yes, that does happen), that's a solid solution.  For the poor that are financially stupid, and want to learn how not to be financially stupid (and thus, not poor), that may also work.  For the poor that are just lazy and want everyone to take care of them...  well, I doubt there's much we're going to do to help them =/

Speaking of which... perhaps something we should look into is free access to financial planners and financial coaches, as that would help alleviate some of the issues we're seeing.

I disagree with the minimum wage bit, but the stuff regarding education is spot on.

Also, not sure you have anything equivalent in the US, but in the UK, there are places you can go for free debt/budgeting/income maximisation advice.

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You have to watch this. It's so, so sweet. A panel of what seem to be the mentally ill having a breakdown throughout the live election results.

I couldn't even make up half of the shit they rant about after losing.

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2 hours ago, Doro said:

You have to watch this. It's so, so sweet. A panel of what seem to be the mentally ill having a breakdown throughout the live election results.

I couldn't even make up half of the shit they rant about after losing.

I didn't watch it, but I just wanted to say that even though the candidate I voted for, Darrell Castle of the Constitution Party, didn't win, I did not riot, loot, terrorise, whine, cry, call in sick, or otherwise make a fool of myself.

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8 hours ago, Doro said:

You have to watch this. It's so, so sweet. A panel of what seem to be the mentally ill having a breakdown throughout the live election results.

I couldn't even make up half of the shit they rant about after losing.

I love watching Cenk lose it.

As for minimum wages, here in Australia (due to how strong unions are here) we have the highest nominal minimum wage in the entire world.  It's currently $17.70 Australian an hour which equates to 10.70 UK Pounds or $13.30 US an hour.  The result of this has been the evisceration of the Australian manufacturing sector. It's quite simply too expensive to make almost anything here and we end up relying on the mining sector and ever increasing government spending (and growing debt) to maintain the economy.  

We also have one of the lowest tax rates of low income earners in the world (and one of the highest rates on high income earners).  We also have free health care.  Despite all this, people still complain bitterly about how bad they have it here.  It makes me sick to be honest.

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12 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

That's not even touching cultural differences, but the end result is that it's a lot easier to do fully government ran programs in the UK or Australia, it becomes a bit harder to do the same in the US because everything scales up. 

That's why states should be treated as individual countries. It's the same reason why the EU didn't work, since it was trying to give everyone the same rules.

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A large number of Americans have to work multiple jobs and much more than 40 hours a week to afford even a basic life with nothing special.  That's not OK.

Minimum wage might improve that. Effectively companies have better communication and deliberately drive wages to the bottom. In an unfair contest. And unions are a joke in the U.S. 

The underlying problem is of course that there are too many people competing for the easier jobs. They compete against each other inside the legal workforce in the U.S., they compete against immigrants and they are, as a group, under pressure from other countries' basic workforce.

Education is obvious. For every person who can take a more demanding job you don't only help that person. You also help that other person who stays in the basic bracket but now has less competition.

As others have mentioned, financial mistakes contribute. You pile up a bunch of debt from a deal gone wrong, that's how you end up having to do another job.

Other items I observed: obscene cost of childcare in the US. Student loans. Liability traps, e.g. the joke of a car insurance system here. Financial traps around healthcare. All in the realms of society to solve.

 

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

snip

I take it you live in Germany. You don't seem to have a clue about how 'this' works in North America. I lived in The Netherlands for 28 years before moving to Canada, where I have lived now for 20 years. Let me enlighten you a little. Darmokk is spot on,

Most of North America now has a service industry. A lot of university and even college graduates find that there are no jobs at their level. There is very high competition for the entry level positions. When my daughter, who at that time was in university, started handing out resumes to find a part time position, she handed out 150 resumes and got 1 job interview. That's how high the competition is. And then we are not even talking about better paying positions. Even newspaper delivery, which used to be a elementary/high school student's after school job-on-the-side has now become attractive to those who can't find regular employment. I kid you not.

Lots of people value education here and they value it so much that they do indeed rack up debt - much more than your 20k btw. It used to be THE way to a decent paying job with a pension. Well guess what? Those jobs no longer exist here the way they used to do. There has been a real shift over the last 20 years. We have entire regions where all the industry is gone... abroad - NAFTA played a huge role in that. Where the only jobs that have come in their place are those sucky part time jobs at fast food restaurants, call centres, and stores like Walmart. There is no need for employees with skills, talents, papers. When you want to work there you have to indicate that you are willing to work ALL hours (in the USA this is often 24/7) and that you will be available at all the other hours you are not scheduled in for. Often, in Canada, this results in weekly shifts below a total of 28 hrs, because when your weekly average gets above that the employer has to start paying benefits: towards medical insurance for example. Thus, many people work less than 28/week - but not by choice. At grocery stores and bigger stores this can go as low as 12 hrs/week... as long as you are available during peek times: Christmas and Easter. Then you get 'overworked'.

In the past, I say 20 years ago and longer, students would find good paying summer jobs that would pay for their tuition and living expenses for the rest of the year - no more - the hourly wage has plummeted and the tuition/living expenses have exploded. This was a shocker for many. Because I am an immigrant it has taken me a long time to understand what was going on here. Even the teachers in school were giving out the wrong advice: 'go to university' when my kids were in high school. But already then it were no longer the university degrees that resulted in jobs. It were the college diplomas - which many people were looking down on at the time because these were 'the trades' - skilled labor - and no white colour jobs.

Parents staying at home to prevent child care expenses ... that is a luxury only the few can afford. In Canada, most people work part-time minimum wage jobs and that will not cover the expenses for a family. So both parents work and they hardly make ends meet. At least 20% of the Canadian children live under the poverty level. It's worse in the USA. At least Canada has a universal health care system, although that excludes the dentist and medication. In the USA you now have to pay for emergency care - which always used to be free. What Darmokk writes about people in the USA working much more than 40 hrs/week is true, because their minimum wage is probably only half of what it is here. So imagine how bad it is in the USA. Especially in cities like Detroit and Chicago, where no industry is left.

There is a real split between rich and poor, with the middle class eroding while I type this.

When you get sick here, you don't get paid. It's that simple. I see people working who are injured and who can't afford to heal at home because they can't afford the rent when they don't work.

40 year olds (or older) who get laid off because the factory where they are working is closing do indeed end up applying for entry level jobs. We have a lot of seniors working too, because their pensions are not enough to make ends meet.

So 'thank you' for saying 'fuck you' and 'let them rot in their multiple jobs'. I think it's quite stupid to show your ignorance like that. Be happy you don't live here. This is daily reality for a huge part of the population of this vast continent and this has a lot to do with governments who believe in not interfering with labor laws that allow for workers to be used and abused.

You forget that health care, insurance costs (scams) etc., and many of the other issues you commented on are structural issues that our whole continent is affected by, not only those who make wrong choices. You then squarely blame the individual, where there really are not many options left anymore. For many young adults who have worked hard in school, this puts a real negative spin on how they look at their futures and is quite demotivating.

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5 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Half of that is because they don't value education as well as they should.  Sometimes it's also the small business owner that's scared stiff of hiring people (because of the liability and also because it's prohibitively expensive), so they must work insane hours per week to cover the lack of labor.  However, even being a small business owner doesn't necessarily make you rich - as most are generally barely scraping by.

However, if we're talking about a job at Walmart... then the real question is why does a 40 year old need to have an entry level job?

For those that don't value education, fuck them, and let them rot in their multiple jobs.

Most corporations don't actually want to do this, as they understand that better pay = better talent.

Show me an actual industry where there's job competition where this is true.

The real problem with the illegal immigrants is that their employers can pay them next to nothing because they can always threaten deportation.

Basically, they get the modern equivalent of slave labor - which is why I'm all for either naturalizing the good ones or shipping them all back.

Yeah, but only if they want to complete a degree.  Many are just happy sitting in the hell they've created and bemoaning their own stupid mistakes.

Or you get people that are financially stupid... like someone who's spending 4-5k/year on computer games when they're only making 30k.

Most "deals gone wrong" that make people poor are really "idiots fell for a scam".

I'm gonna break apart this ramble, because you're even less coherent than your normal liberal self....

Childcare can be mitigated if a parent is able to stay at home with the kid, but that requires one person to make enough to cover the household.

Student debt needs to be looked at, as saddling a college graduate (even one with a STEM degree) with 20k+debt isn't a good thing.

And the same that's been said about health care can be said about car insurance >.>

Healthcare in this country's got costs that are out of whack, so what are you really referring to here?

The education system here is arguable excluding a lot of people who want an education and would work hard for it to lead somewhere.

The childcare cost in the US, at least in Boston, Silicon Valley etc is astronomically high, compared to other countries. I know because I know fresh parents here and in Germany. It is simply driven up to the maximum you can charge (which is a typical Boston person's full income, which is what they lose if one parent stays home).

Financial stupidity is partially based on lack of education. Lack of critical thinking, lack of basic math skills. Not all, but some or many. Outright financial irresponsibility is also not more common to poor or uneducated people. Financial ruin from being fooled due to lack of education is.

Car insurance is fundamentally different from health insurance. Just for starters you cannot allow people to not get health insurance when they are young and then get it when their health fails due to age.  For a car there is no problem with simply not owning a car. Then getting a car at a random point in time later might carry a higher insurance premium, but the difference is nowhere near to what the risk difference for health insurance is.

Illegal immigrants staying illegal is a big problem. As you say they drive down not only wages but work conditions. Same with those stupid H1B visa that don't allow job change - it is the American employees that suffer, because now they have to compete with H1B holders who get blackmailed. Illegal immigrants also pose a big problem for transportation. Driving a car should only be done with a proper license and insurance. If you make those unavailable to some people, at the same time create a huge need (let's say dad needs to get kids stuff done in a rural area - while working 2-3 jobs) you create risk for health and finances for everybody.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Doro said:

You have to watch this. It's so, so sweet. A panel of what seem to be the mentally ill having a breakdown throughout the live election results.

I couldn't even make up half of the shit they rant about after losing.

Yeah, I did have problems coping with them throwing fits and ramble incoherently.

The most fascinating thing was how they managed to switch from admiration and praise for all things Clinton to sudden verbal abuse and hatred for those same things, without Clinton doing a thing, just courtesy of votes being counted. Also of course, the superiority complex of some and how they show their true faces. Priceless.

SNy

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15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

 

Yeah, but only if they want to complete a degree.  Many are just happy sitting in the hell they've created and bemoaning their own stupid mistakes.

 

Not every well paid job requires a degree, some people are better suited to skill based training. Skilled work such as eg. electrical, plumbing, carpentry, mechanic pays reasonably well (at least here in the UK) and requires practical training. Better apprenticeship and training schemes would help people who are not suited to an intellectual\theoretical school\college based education acquire skills that can still provide them with reasonable pay and job satisfaction.

Education isn't just about getting good at maths, english and science and then getting a degree. Education can be about acquiring any skill

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15 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Bullshit, I live in Seattle, WA.

I'm a natural born US Citizen, with both parents and grandparents as natural born Americans as well.  I can trace part of my Dad's side of the family all the way back to a Revolutionary War veteran.

So you can take the rest of your pretentious post and fuck off.

Your anger speaks volumes. So does your attitude. Good luck with that.

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