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What Can't Be Said At Turbine.

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Yeah thats right, I think its two weeks then you can post anywhere.

aha! Thanks for clearing this up. Had no idea :)

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Just noticed that the thread on the US forums about these ones has been removed. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?393820-Different-Forums-to-post doesn't lead anywhere anymore. You can still see the thread if you search for "different forums", but can't view it.

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Just noticed that the thread on the US forums about these ones has been removed. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?393820-Different-Forums-to-post doesn't lead anywhere anymore. You can still see the thread if you search for "different forums", but can't view it.

Shocker, kind of justifies the existance of these forums really :)

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Well, that one started to get into a flame-fest because of a few people over-defending Turbine. Doesn't surprise me that got removed.

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I must admit I stopped following it a few hours ago but even if it did turn into a flame fest why delete it? Locking it would have been enough.

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The way the thread was introduced really had only one possible outcome, so it is not surprising. I don't suppose I can say it often enough:

This forum is not here just to rant at Turbine, nor as a completely unmoderated forum, stop portraying it as such.

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The way the thread was introduced really had only one possible outcome, so it is not surprising. I don't suppose I can say it often enough:

This forum is not here just to rant at Turbine, nor as a completely unmoderated forum, stop portraying it as such.

/signed

It's a forum free from Sapience ;)

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The way the thread was introduced really had only one possible outcome, so it is not surprising. I don't suppose I can say it often enough:

This forum is not here just to rant at Turbine, nor as a completely unmoderated forum, stop portraying it as such.

I thought this was a forum with more free speech and less of an agenda than the Codemasters and Turbine forums.

As Vorontur says, it's a forum free from Sapience, so I hope that also means this is a forum free of bias.

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The sad thing is how many people buy the party line over on Turbine's forum. And since all evidence to the contrary is generally erased, it's difficult to dissuade them of the notion that Sapience is telling the truth.

For example, I "saw" this OP once (insert whistling smilie) over there. Several people commented, most in support with a few suggesting that you had to attack others or say disgusting stuff in order to have a post removed as Sapience has repeatedly insinuated. Some even pointed out that the existence of the OP itself was evidence that Turbine willingly took criticism on their forums.

The thread was, of course, removed after about a dozen replies, none of which violated any code of conduct. I was told that the reason for removal (whistling) was that it violated the TOS prohibition against discussing forum moderation. What do you think? Nearly every board has that as a provision for posting (including this one, I'm sure), but I have never been involved with any board, either as a moderator or a posting member, where that provision was extended to encompass more than discussion of specific incidents.

Social Networking 101

This post is for you folks at Turbine who don't seem to understand how social networking and forums work as it relates to business. Attempting to silence your customer base when they have complaints is really, really a very bad business decision. First of all, it can't be done. Second, it ticks your customers off. And third, it makes you look like a cat that's trying to bury its stool - not a good public image.

You have a forum system dedicated for use by your customers. This is smart. People will generally come here first to post any problems or complaints they have. This is usually with the expectation that it might have some impact on things since company representatives will be reading. Or that they will get feedback from the community and company.

That's great, because it gives the company an opportunity to respond and possibly nip public relations problems in the bud. Fires can be put out before they erupt into something worse. It leaves you in control of your own message.

But, when a company refuses to address the issues raised in its own forums while moving and locking threads in an attempt to cover it all up, then their customers will perforce behave very differently. The customers will find somewhere on the internet to vent, and you won't always have access to correct the damage. And they will probably not be very nice in what they have to say.

There are Facebook and Twitter and dozens and dozens of gaming sites and blogs out there. Attempting to put fires out once they have escaped into the wild, wild west of the greater internet is a task that is much more difficult, if at all possible.

I really hope you folks give this some thought and stop what you are doing before it's too late. Address your customer's issues and don't try to cover them up. That my advice for what it's worth. Take it or leave it.

Best,

A paying customer.

  • Upvote 1

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I thought this was a forum with more free speech and less of an agenda than the Codemasters and Turbine forums.

I don't use the US forums. But the stories I read here, and that blog if it is true, sound quite scary.

Yet I never had any trouble with the CM forum and thought they did a very good job at balancing moderation. Maybe it's just me, but I hope lotrocommunity will moderate in a similar spirit. At least when it comes to a posters behaviour and language. I suppose company related rules aren't that important here.

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This forum is not here just to rant at Turbine, nor as a completely unmoderated forum, stop portraying it as such.

Whilst I understand peoples frustrations at the official forum moderation, I really do hope that this forum doesn't just become a haven for "the bitter and twisted to vent their spleens" because that would be a shame and would ruin what could turn out to be "a beautiful thing" O-)

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it makes you look like a cat that's trying to bury its stool - not a good public image.

Thanks for the mental image ;)

Whilst I've not had any direct contact with the Turbine boards I have heard about the over-zealous moderation.

I am glad I have somewhere I can come and speak my mind without fear of getting sent to the sin-bin...or worse.

*goes in search of mental-floss to get rid of the cat image*

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I thought this was a forum with more free speech and less of an agenda than the Codemasters and Turbine forums.

As Vorontur says, it's a forum free from Sapience, so I hope that also means this is a forum free of bias.

I don't see what this has to do with MueR's post? All he's saying is that this forum is not intended to be either anarchy nor a free haven to flame and troll anyone without limits. This is a community forum with its own rules, and that includes a lot of free speech (but not unlimited) and no further agenda than being a pleasurable place to be for the LOTRO community.

There will even be a bias: to make sure everyone has a good time here, and that obviously means people spoiling other people's good times will still get warnings and potentially even bans. That's how communities work - you sift out the bad weeds so the good ones can flourish.

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Whilst I understand peoples frustrations at the official forum moderation, I really do hope that this forum doesn't just become a haven for "the bitter and twisted to vent their spleens" because that would be a shame and would ruin what could turn out to be "a beautiful thing" O-)

I think many people really do need a place to vent, but I like the idea of trying to keep it focused within a single thread or two so it doesn't disrupt the entire site.

It also provides an opportunity to show others what is really happening by re-posting "disappeared" posts here since discussion on the Turbine forums of deleted posts or disciplinary actions is disallowed.

But, obviously the community itself and the forum moderators will eventually determine if this is one role we wish to play or not. I would suggest that it is, however I'd be fine if it is determined not to be so.

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I think many people really do need a place to vent, but I like the idea of trying to keep it focused within a single thread or two so it doesn't disrupt the entire site.

I guess I maybe should have emphasised the "just" in the .....

"I really do hope that this forum doesn't just become a haven for "the bitter and twisted to vent their spleens"

.....sentence :*)

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I think many people really do need a place to vent, but I like the idea of trying to keep it focused within a single thread or two so it doesn't disrupt the entire site.

It also provides an opportunity to show others what is really happening by re-posting "disappeared" posts here since discussion on the Turbine forums of deleted posts or disciplinary actions is disallowed.

But, obviously the community itself and the forum moderators will eventually determine if this is one role we wish to play or not. I would suggest that it is, however I'd be fine if it is determined not to be so.

I don't see a problem with having a topic, or perhaps a handful of them, on the subject(s). I just don't think it's in anyone's benefit if the entire forum would be about it ;)

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I don't see a problem with having a topic, or perhaps a handful of them, on the subject(s). I just don't think it's in anyone's benefit if the entire forum would be about it ;)

We are in complete agreement then. :D

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I thought this was a forum with more free speech and less of an agenda than the Codemasters and Turbine forums.

It is. But the way I've seen people announce it as the haven to rant just isn't correct. The only thing you'll achieve is to get people in a much more defensive mindset. They'll be much more inclined to defend the policies as "not as bad as you say".

This forum does have more free speech. But, and this is the inevitable but, free speech has it's limits. If everything is kept civil, write all you want (as long as it's not against the forum rules). If someone starts trolling or flame-baiting, you can expect a moderator to step in.

Now, for those who don't like walls of text, here's the short summary of the text below: keep it decent, keep it friendly.

Still reading? Okay, here goes:

As some of you may know, I'm a moderator on a big Dutch forum. Counting over 400,000 members, it's a challenge to balance moderation with keeping the forum fun and interesting for all. Over-moderation will kill the forum, as it chases new members away. Under-moderation will kill the forum, as it chases the "old guard" away, as they don't want to answer the same question over and over.

How we handle this over at Tweakers.net is pretty simple. Every section of the forum has a group of moderators, lead by an administrator. If you disagree with a moderator's decision, you talk to the moderator. If you two can't work it out, you can talk to his or her administrator. If that fails, there's a body called "Doktersteam". They are mediators between the user and crew. They can overturn bans, though they will hardly ever get involved in matters like locked topics.

One thing everyone needs to understand about moderation (yes Sapience, that also means you, should you be reading), is that moderation is done to keep the community a nice place to be. Moderators should not moderate for the sake of moderating. They should moderate because someone is spoiling the atmosphere of the community. You should ban someone who continually derails topics with the intention to derail topics. You should educate those who do it without realising what they do.

Finding the correct approach to moderation is difficult. Every moderator has some part human in them, ergo they make mistakes. The difference between a good and a bad moderator is their ability to admit their mistakes. If you cannot tell a user that it was indeed wrong to close their topic, you should not be a moderator. If you do not grant the user explanation why you closed their topic, you should not be a moderator. Explaining that can be as simple as "I found your topic in violation of policy this and that, because ..". If you simply supply the first part, you're not moderating, you are dictating.

What was I writing about again? Oh yes, free speech. Your right to free speech on this forum is limited to what the community finds acceptable. However, as with any forum, there is no democracy. On the internet, everyone is equal, when not on someone's turf. When on someone's turf, that someone needs to lay down some basic rules, or things turn ugly. When that turf is home to a large(ish) community, the rules will automatically be more strict as with for example, a kinship forum. Simply because there's more people to deal with, who all have feelings and sensitivities.

Free speech is an often misunderstood term, just like "free internet". While the internet should be a free medium, it being a free medium should not allow you to do everything you want on it. Spamming and phishing are some of the milder examples. While the dictionary meaning of free speech means unrestricted speech, that simply is not feasible. It's not in the real world, it certainly is not on the internet. Without the ground rules of what can't be said and done, chaos ensues. If there are no ground rules to point at, limiting free speech appears random to others. With ground rules, you can say "This doesn't belong here, because .. <point at rules, chapter 31, section 15, subsection 12, paragraph 4>".

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Fair's fair. Thank you, MueR. d;)b

(Unrelated: Could we have a trout-slapping emote?)

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keep it decent, keep it friendly.

Well put. Even the long version. :)

One thought I like is that the community forum may even attract US players. Especially if Turbine moderation is as restricted as I heard these last days. A friendly and safe place for players to voice their concerns and opinions, without Turbine being able to swing the ban hammer or delete threads.

Like this Security Issues at Turbine thread.

(if they grow in numbers they could even be collected in a Turbine's Top Secrets thread. Or LotrO Undercover, heh. :+)

The bigger this forum grows the better. And it may even grow of importance for Turbine to read here what they aren't allowed (or don't want to) leave on their official company forum. If you shut out all critical feedback, even constructive one, you may seem like a perfect happy place for newcomers (and investors?) but it's mighty risky for the game's life in the long run.

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As far as I see it, this doesn't have to be undercover...just an alternative. As alternatives go, this one has great potential.

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I seriously doubt I'll be going anywhere near the Turbine forums tbh. I have had a few infractions of the SWTOR forums for what were mildly sarcastic responses to some of those forums more moronic members (and one for saying that WoW Arena PvP always reminded me of a load of Pokemon on crystal meth) , so I don't imagine I'd last long on Turbines forums. :x

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I seriously doubt I'll be going anywhere near the Turbine forums tbh. I have had a few infractions of the SWTOR forums for what were mildly sarcastic responses to some of those forums more moronic members (and one for saying that WoW Arena PvP always reminded me of a load of Pokemon on crystal meth) , so I don't imagine I'd last long on Turbines forums. :x

One of my Turbine infractions, earned while discussing the anniversary mounts was for saying:

inf1.jpg

I also got an infraction for this one:

inf2.jpg

I still don't find anything wrong with those posts, but I sure as hell got two infractions for them. (luckily I got screen shots before the thread got deleted)

The day after I got those, someone started a "Turbine anniversary appreciation" thread. I simply replied that "I'm just thankful that I only got two infractions from the last Anniversary thread."

Needless to say, one more infraction was added to my collection...

I just wish that Turbine would afford all players the opportunity to openly and honestly voice their concerns, rather than treat us as adversaries unworthy of an opinion. A thread with 1,000+ posts and 45,000+ views says that the community isn't happy, and when the community isn't happy, problems compound.

This was the total post/read count for that thread immediately after it was locked and before it disappeared...

aniv.jpg

You've got to love a company that advertises their anniversary celebration, then prohibits all discussion of it in their forums during said "celebration," and then slaps down and infracts anyone who isn't having a good time.

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To be honest, sometimes threads went all the wrong way and off-topic in massive amounts on the CM forums (off-topic is my middlename as it happens). So it wasn't all rosy, but it definitely was better than what Turbine's offering currently. I'll probably log to Turbine forums on my F2P account, but not on my Lifetime account, just to keep it safe. Still, I intend to mostly read about what's what and keep the venting, what-if-fing and lol-ling to other, more considerate forums.

I don't think this forum will be just for raging at the big T. We already got a very decent forum covering many angles of the game. Good people too.

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