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The things I have said that Sapience does not like.


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OK they are well within there rights to do this I guess but my sig has been edited again. Previously it had

Runesi 68 R8 RK Snowbourn

Council Of The West | lotrocommunity.com | COTW @SWTOR

Now its just

Runesi 68 R8 RK Snowbourn

Council Of The West

I guess I don't really care but if they can find time to edit my sig perhaps they can find time to answer my questions regarding there security in the official thread.

Anyone else had the lotrocommunity link removed from there sig?

I noticed my signature has been changed as well. The question about whether any other databases were accessible was removed. I sent Celestrata a PM to find out if it was Turbine who changed it, and if so why as I've had no notification, or whether I need to change my password again.

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Hiya peeps, To the surprise of nobody, I have been posting on the Turbine boards as Zweiblumen. I had originally wanted to avoid joining officially the dots between the two accounts, but seeing a

We do love Lotro, but these fanbois are actively destroying the game by blaming players for every flaw that ever happens and forcing topics away from any inconvenient questions..

Posting here to save it. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?440377-What-is-new-in-the-store-armors&p=5942975#post5942975

It appears that some recent posts mean this forum now breaks the forum rules.

When their forum rules are mutable on a whim, of course this board breaks their rules. Robert's Rules would break their rules right now, I wager.

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I send a PM regarding the removal of my signature and got a response say my signature breached rules 2 and 18 of the community guideline

http://www.lotro.com/community/700-communityguidelines

It appears that some recent posts mean this forum now breaks the forum rules

Hmmm... Strongly considering changing my sig on the LOTRO Forums to "I'm a violation". But on second thought, that would simply further impress upon the Turbine staff that we're snarky delinquents, as opposed to rational people with legitimate grievances.

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I noticed my signature has been changed as well. The question about whether any other databases were accessible was removed. I sent Celestrata a PM to find out if it was Turbine who changed it, and if so why as I've had no notification, or whether I need to change my password again.

Celestrata has just replied confirming that it was a Turbine moderator who changed it. Didn't give a reason why, so I've asked that, and why whoever it was didn't tell me that they had changed it.

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When their forum rules are mutable on a whim, of course this board breaks their rules. Robert's Rules would break their rules right now, I wager.

BINGO

2. You may not use, distribute, or spotlight, or post links to sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially, nationally, ethnically offensive content or language, or other content deemed inappropriate at the discretion of the Turbine Community Team.

Note the bold italics part.

Let me translate: Anything we darn well please.

If you say you don’t like the color blue, and they like the color blue, then they can, at their discretion invoke guideline #2.

This is what’s called a slippery slope.

I’ve worked for far too many years fighting open ended legislation with loose wording like that in the various state legislatures to not take it for exactly what it is. A license to do anything they darn well want. And that is absolutely unacceptable.

If they want to lay down guidelines for everyone to follow, that’s perfectly fine.

As long as they follow them as well. But that’s never what happens. And that is where the tension and the bad blood lie.

Most individuals are fairly reasonable. It’s when they feel like they have been singled out for abuse, that the problems start.

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This is what’s called a slippery slope.

Actually, this is a perfectly normal clause to include in any forum policy. If you do not include something like this, there's always going to be someone nitpicking and claiming that their post/topic does in fact not violate the policy, where anyone with two braincells would find their post repulsive.

In this particular case, it's the arbitrary criteria they use and their refusal to explain why they do what they do that makes it.. annoying.

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Actually, this is a perfectly normal clause to include in any forum policy. If you do not include something like this, there's always going to be someone nitpicking and claiming that their post/topic does in fact not violate the policy, where anyone with two braincells would find their post repulsive.

In this particular case, it's the arbitrary criteria they use and their refusal to explain why they do what they do that makes it.. annoying.

Quoting policy is useless when their policy reads "or anything the forums moderators think is a violation". This gives them a VERY, VERY wide brush to paint with.

For example, I quoted Sapience verbatim in my signature once, but he gave me an infraction for quoting what he said because he said I was "using it out of context". How the HELL can nothing but an exact quote of a CM be used out of context? I didn't post anything before it or after it, nor did I append any comment to it. It was nothing but a quote. Alas, Sapience and I don't get along, so that's probably why. If any of his fanbois had posted it nothing would have happened.

Next they'll be giving us infractions for discussing forum matters on other websites. Oh, wait, they're already doing that.

Like I've said before, Turbine is standing in a very deep hole and throwing dirt onto itself. Between issues with the game, issues with the site(s) and power-hungry CM's, Turbine is slowly killing itself and the game.

I am going to take a wild guess and say that once Turbine comes out with WB's new "cash cow" MMO, IF they do, then WB is going to shut down LOTRO, DDO, AC and Turbine, because they are ALL losing money for WB at this point in time.

(Of course, that's probably why they are taking so long with the development of the game.)

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I find the bold section the only relevant section, the rest is window dressing. If they can do anything they want, they may as well make that the rule, and avoid the textual semantics.

My edit for honesty version of the rule:

#2 All forum content, including official statements or customer postings, is subject to moderation and/or edit at the sole discretion of the Turbine Community Team, without warning or notice. Examples of prohibited material are sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially, nationally, ethnically offensive content or language, and this list is not exhaustive. We make no guarantees of personal rights.

Shortened version for people in a hurry to read the rules:

#2 We alone will determine what can or can't be posted. Repeated breaking of this rule will result in eventual permanent ban from the forum site, and possibly the game. If we don't like it, it's not allowed.

At least then, when people start receiving the warnings, infractions, or plain bans, they'll be aware that T could do anything they want for any reason they want against anyone. That would probably have quite the chilling effect on discussion, but people should know what they are getting into upfront without the linguistic puppet show.

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For example, I quoted Sapience verbatim in my signature once, but he gave me an infraction for quoting what he said because he said I was "using it out of context". How the HELL can nothing but an exact quote of a CM be used out of context? I didn't post anything before it or after it, nor did I append any comment to it. It was nothing but a quote. Alas, Sapience and I don't get along, so that's probably why. If any of his fanbois had posted it nothing would have happened.

Well let's be fair, it wasn't a quote that a fanboi would have put in their signature. I think the quote in question (any particular reason you haven't quoted the quote in your post for me to quote? :) ) was very apt however I can see why Sapience might claim it to be 'out of context' as he surely didn't mean for it ever to be used in that way as it reflects poorly on his ability to carry out his job in that what he said was poorly worded and also a reflection that he is not successfully 'shielding' Turbine from the perception that he himself supported with those words.

Bottom line is that a fanboi would find for more favourable quotes that are supportive of Sapience and Turbine and give an image of everything being rosy.

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Quoting policy is useless when their policy reads "or anything the forums moderators think is a violation". This gives them a VERY, VERY wide brush to paint with.

That's exactly the idea of a "oops, we didn't think of that type of unwanted post" clause. The difference in Turbine's approach and my own is explaining why. Forum moderation means that someone is enforcing a set of rules. Being humans (I really am one, honest *bleep*), every moderator interprets those rules different. Sure, gore is gore and nudity is nudity, but once you move out into the area where it's less black and white and more grey tones, the interpretation of the moderator comes in. If that moderator takes the time to explain why he/she interprets the rule (or affected content) in such a way, most users will understand. If you don't, you're inevitably causing confusion and your moderation will appear erratic at best.

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The whole thing is false advertising.

Their public forums are presented as operating under one set of rules but they do actually operate under a different one. The view presented to any random new visitor at any random time does not present what the posters did post under the published rules, and the set of active posters is different from what the rules states they are (because of bans issued under those different rules, and treating people differently not based on what and how they post but on what opinion they have). In addition there are payed (at least in TPs) posters out there riding party line, without disclosing who they are.

Everybody out there understands that a vendor forum is being cleared of bash-that-vendor material. But here the public is actively deceived. It would be better to replace the rules with "we will edit this forum whatever way we please and everything you see might as well be written by our marketing team".

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[..]

  1. We stop insulting Turbine employees in any way.
  2. We stop inferring that Turbine is only interested in money at any cost.
  3. We frame our comments about Turbine as politely as possible.
  4. We stop giving Turbine and their supporters reason to call us all Trolls and Haters.

I know it will be hard for some here to do this, but to be honest, we really must. I'm sure you are all aware that Turbine considers us to all be the absolute worst of the worst. Anything we might say right now holds no weight at all with them, and I'm sure they will impress that upon as much of the community at the official LOTRO Forums as well, so we need to show them a different face.

We need to turn the other cheek.

Show them all that we aren't just raging arses, intent to cause trouble.

I wanted to quote this again, because to me it's very important. I've come to know this forum for a friendly atmosphere, fair and respectfull discussions and a good moderation.

Of course the overall mindset is con-Turbine, but we wouldn't have that many members if everyhing was fine over there and they could provide us with a similiar communtiy. The winds have changed over here within the last weeks and discussions got harsher and trolling got more (occured?). With an increasing number of members this seems totally normal and nothing to worry about. Still the quote above is a very good reminder to stick to the strenght of this forum and try to improve things while staying polite and using reason.

The last item on your list is misleading, we won't stop calling _you a troll, the troll. :9

One last thought on the forum rules. MueR pointed out that a moderator needs such rules to provide a good moderation, because you can't think of all inappropriate/forbidden stuff in advance. This being very true, i like to add that next to follow is a moderator using this rule with reason. Abusing this power is as easy as slipping a ring on your finger.

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Often a formerly very good company suffers from a spate of bad management/bad managerial decisions.

Especially if an original team sets a high standard for quality and customer relations.

I think that's simply what's at the crux of the matter here.

And nothing will change until the people making the bad decisions are either ousted, or get assigned to a non-customer facing position. OR... have some kind of epiphany or revelation that they are causing their own problems. Since the latter is unlikely to happen, I'd say the first two are more likely.

And if that doesn't happen, they'll probably just be singing the tune of the Titanic as the ship sinks, and they're left wondering why.

At this point we can either wait and/or push for change, the latter which will likely get us all branded as 'Anti-Turbine', or we can simply move on.

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It would appear that some people who are active (yet civil) critics of Turbine have been placed in the Tachy Goes To Coventry list on the Turbine forums. This is a vBulletin feature that acts as a global ignore, no one but administrators/moderators and yourself see your posts. Excellent as a tool to combat trolls (if they don't get response, they'll likely stop, where banning only leads to clone accounts), but it's apparent use over there seems questionable.

Just started reading the origins of this thread.

What a slimy, sleazy, underhanded, revolting, juvenile thing to do so someone.

No warning, no anything, just silently make it so that their posts are seen by no one but themselves and the mod staff.

I'd not heard it called that particular term before, but it's usually only reserved for the most flagrant of forum trolls, and used only in VERY special occasions. Nothing I read from H even REMOTELY justified this kind of behavior.

I think I came to a new level of disgust today after reading that, if that's even possible anymore.

Edit: Just finished reading the entirely of the image texts from Hajile on the first page. My hat's off to you, mate.

You wrote an incredibly well worded argument that was just totally swept under the rug, and then you were 'Coventry'd'.

It's just amazing to me that this kind of behavior is tolerated at that company. But it does make one wonder, that if it's STILL tolerated after all of this, and the higher ups HAVE to know what's going on by now, it can only mean that they are complicit in it. Which means that nothing will change.

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It's been attacked already. 'You aren't allowed to get a refund for something you used'. Total BS by the way. Of course you are, it happens all the time. Cars, appliances, furniture, pretty much anything that gets sold, can be used and then returned. In most cases, you have to use it to even find out it's broken or fails to do what was advertised. I wonder, all those people who can't get Draigoch to work right, that's grounds for a refund right there. Doesn't matter that 'we will fix it in a future update'; fix it now, or give back the money now, would be a good response to that line of PR. They might have made a refund cut off date, but online products can't be used in their entirety right at the purchase date, you have to work through it first, and sometimes the broken bits don't show till near the end. That should still grant a refund in my mind, because the product doesn't follow the usual usage of other purchased items.

Some may attempt to state that you aren't required to use the raid, BUT, if you can't use it, and you bought the product to do just that, as well as the rest, then it's selling a product that doesn't meet it's advertised function, which is fraud and grounds for a refund. The fact that software may have bugs won't protect that. If you knew it was buggy, you should not have sold it. If manufacturers sell products that cause injury, they are liable for that. No injury per se from the product, but they are still on the hook for refunds if people can't use the whole of it because it's not all working. Regardless of how long they've had it. This isn't a word processor package or virus scanner, it's a game. It should still have to function fully all the way through. Unhappy because it's not as good as you thought it would be is one thing, but not working? You got a case for a refund. And if T should state that users should have checked forums first, well, not all people do that, they are aware of that, and depend on it really.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another ludicrous close of a thread, and also without the moderator who's closing as much as identifying himself or herself, and with no explanation:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?432592-That-blooming-Dragon/page2

The thread has a point. Of course the game's GM interface can kill anything instantly. Saying otherwise is a policy statement.

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Only just found this in my inbox on Turbine Forums.

Dorothir,

As I'm sure you know, we do not allow links to LOTRO Community in the signatures of users due to the violations of the community guidelines on that site. I have removed the link from your signature.

I will not issue an infraction or a warning to you over this. However, should you do it again, I will remove your signature completely and assign an infraction. Please do not re-add the link.

Additionally, on a more personal note, I was more than happy to review my own moderation when you brought it up to me, as I always am, and I am always willing to talk with you on any issues you may have. I may not always be able to answer, but I can at least listen and perhaps pass your opinions along.

Sincerely,

~Celestrata

Apparently these forums break their rules so they won't allow it. I'm curious as to what rules it does break, since she is trying to show she can moderate fairly. It may mean she'll have no other choice but to remove even links to kin forums.

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I may not always be able to answer, but I can at least listen and perhaps pass your opinions along.

That last sentence is pretty telling. It confirms what I've suspected...that the mods there are restricted just as the employees of any company would be. It's nice that she took the time to talk to you about it, though.

:)

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That last sentence is pretty telling. It confirms what I've suspected...that the mods there are restricted just as the employees of any company would be. It's nice that she took the time to talk to you about it, though.

:)

Yeah, she's often been very fair with me. On those rare occassions in which I've recieved sudden infractions (such as one for calling someone a 'fanboy') I could tell it wasn't her decision, more likely something forced upon her by the usual suspect.

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Yeah, she's often been very fair with me. On those rare occassions in which I've recieved sudden infractions (such as one for calling someone a 'fanboy') I could tell it wasn't her decision, more likely something forced upon her by the usual suspect.

Judging from her history, she seems to be very much a gamer at heart, and I think she's only engaging in job protection. We all need to eat.

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