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LasraelLarson

So it turns out the Legendary servers arren't actually a huge success

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

A lot of kins just started throwing out adverts and invites like it was going out of fashion the moment the LS started. I had to disable kinvites and put dozens of people on ignore for that shit. It makes sense that there'd be a lot of dead characters making up the numbers.

Which is probably representative of the LS as a whole, maybe 75-80% of the players that started it are no longer active.  They probably made a few gold coins the first month or 2, but wonder now if the remaining players are worth the effort they have to put into it (which is shitty at best)

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It looks like the temporary closure of Turtle and Watcher was absolutely useless for the former and destructive for the latter.

Did a Turtle run, it seems like it just has more health and a bigger stacking bleed, but is practically still no issue for a pug to run. There was no real reason to have even closed this one to begin with if that's all they've done.

Watcher, however, has been given much higher damage. This has meant pugs (which are mostly made of glass-cannons and people who don't know how to play the game) are now locked out of it. Every attempt I've done today has resulted in people dying in a few hits because they've got shit builds. One run had a bloody "tank" who only had 10k morale... my DPS bear has 13k without even trying. People actually have to know what their class can do/is supposed to do, know what builds are best, and most importantly they need to know strategies. That's often too much to ask on the LS.

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

It looks like the temporary closure of Turtle and Watcher was absolutely useless for the former and destructive for the latter.

Did a Turtle run, it seems like it just has more health and a bigger stacking bleed, but is practically still no issue for a pug to run. There was no real reason to have even closed this one to begin with if that's all they've done.

Watcher, however, has been given much higher damage. This has meant pugs (which are mostly made of glass-cannons and people who don't know how to play the game) are now locked out of it. Every attempt I've done today has resulted in people dying in a few hits because they've got shit builds. One run had a bloody "tank" who only had 10k morale... my DPS bear has 13k without even trying. People actually have to know what their class can do/is supposed to do, know what builds are best, and most importantly they need to know strategies. That's often too much to ask on the LS.

This was our kin getting to grips with the new Watcher 2.0 - Hunter tanks up to this point. Finally proper tanks got a raid slot; Macdui had all the Radiance gear from the 6 mans (we banned doorway farming in kin) and just manages  6,360 morale, lacking some radiance because most of the other's had full Watcher gear from the previous strat. We lost our videographer after this but soon got the Watcher back on farm with these morale levels.

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I havent done any of these raids before the make over, but half kin/half pug smoked the turtle, and only took 3 tries to get the watcher strat down. We took that half and half into DN and cruised to Flagit, but some people are just too stupid to do the eye mechanic and stop attacking at the right time so after numerous tries I had to bail as it was getting late. It was enjoyable and not insanely hard, kind of in the right spot to allow for some pugs and non hardcore players to run some of this.

 

As for me my RK is over the cap on tact mastery, just below on crit, and way too low Morale wise and fared well. As a middle of the road player it kind of all just felt where it should be. Hardcore raiding kins will find this too easy and a slap in the face, not sure if there are T2 and T3 yet to make up for it

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37 minutes ago, Altreg01 said:

... Flagit, but some people are just too stupid to do the eye mechanic and stop attacking at the right time so after numerous tries I had to bail as it was getting late.

This has been my constant experience with Flagit. After multiple tries, I'd eventually kicked 10 out of 12 people for failing to deal with eyes and attacking boss all the time, then just duo'd it with a warden (the only warden I had who knew not to puts bleeds on or use a spear). Probably couldn't do that now if they've upped the damage in DN.

36 minutes ago, Altreg01 said:

... not sure if there are T2 and T3 yet to make up for it

Supposedly, there won't be any T2 or T3 for Moria, at least that's what some have said Cordovan has said.

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3 minutes ago, Doro said:

This has been my constant experience with Flagit. After multiple tries, I'd eventually kicked 10 out of 12 people for failing to deal with eyes and attacking boss all the time, then just duo'd it with a warden (the only warden I had who knew not to puts bleeds on or use a spear). Probably couldn't do that now if they've upped the damage in DN.

Pugs shouldn't be easing past the Troll twins though. Should be tanks having a tough time to maintain off mob aggro, healers doing their utmost to avoid heal aggro, the dps holding back and the cloud all but filling the room by then end.

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49 minutes ago, Macdui101 said:

Pugs shouldn't be easing past the Troll twins though. Should be tanks having a tough time to maintain off mob aggro, healers doing their utmost to avoid heal aggro, the dps holding back and the cloud all but filling the room by then end.

I'm a bear, though. I can just tank both at the same time and stand in one place for the clouds to stay around me. The only challenge with the trolls is their random hitting.

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this commentary is 100% to the design and age of the game & 0% to the actual players and producers of this video...

18 hours ago, Macdui101 said:

 

FUCK that was boring to watch!

old ass graphics & visually just doesn't look dynamic, even though there is obviously alot of target swap/control at play...  really hits home why i have only managed the Moria Meta Goat on one of my characters...   as a completionist i should get it on all (or most) of them, but this fight just doesn't remotely excite me... and i do not know what the graphics settings are for the person shooting this vid, but the simple fact that most players have to turn everything waaaay down to avoid the lag, etc.

... but just watching the video, you wouldn't think there is any reason for low graphics, but again old ass game engine and old ass game client, so most people have to kill graphics & i doubt it even looks much better on high graphics.

and if anyone thinks this isn't old ass tech at play...

Quote

"DDO & LOTRO (...and our other major MMO here... AKA Ashhrons call from 1998.). share alot of game code and are derived from a common engine"

when it comes to Moria, Fil Gashan was probably my favorite instance...

i appreciated the setting and initial puzzle in Forgotten Treasury, as it briefly touched on how Dwarves were notorious for puzzle vaults & liked to lock there treasures behind more than just a simple lock and key, visually probably the best Moria instance.

as far as something that is a tad more friendly to newbish players,  Skumfil (at least it was originally) because of the split paths & optional 3rd stage, was fairly short and sweet, some challenge but not much.

Ost Elendil is still my favorite though (of the ones i have actually played...  there are lots i haven't even got round to trying.)

but this watcher fight...  not a selling point for me anyway.  & that objection is 100% the age of the actual game engine and client & the design of the instance itself.

also it is the above quality & performance of staple game stuff that makes me realize why this game never grew beyond it's first year way back in 2007 & from  Moria on just continued to shrink.

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On 3/21/2019 at 5:49 AM, Splay said:

The graphs above were never clear to me if they are unique client log ons or character log ons. I always understood them as character log ons but have nothing to support this.

this:

image.png.7a76dc0eca997883dbb6c181140eed92.pngimage.png.e43f96639f5af81b23aa98661e3b0478.png

is an interpretation of actual log in data from the game client as shown here:

image.png.556c45aa125e44d65f305e720b40b292.pngimage.png.c94395b8f16b994bdefe7ec384fe6660.png

On 3/21/2019 at 5:49 AM, Splay said:

 What is clear is, these numbers are non-anon numbers. I always used them as a general reference taking note of average activity.

they do in fact include anons as the data is from the actual game client and not the who panel in game (which excludes those flagged anon.)

the above green charts use an algorithm based on a static assumption from the actual log-ins and interpret a player number based off that, so while it can't be 100% accurate (because player game time isn't a constant) it is in the ballpark, or a close approximation.

you also can't use the in game query panel as it excludes anons & even adding a rough 20% addition on top of regular players is only in the ballpark rather than exact number because the raw number of anons is also not static, but fluctuates.

so we can never know exact numbers, however we can make reasonable approximations from the data available that is definitely in the ballpark. so no it is not exact, but it is also never that far off either.

On 3/28/2019 at 2:54 AM, Altreg01 said:

Of the remaining active players in my large kin

so more than 50?  not dead names in a list, but actual players... the actual number of active people currently playing?

what constitutes large nowadays pales to what got the large label in yesteryear...

back during Shadows of Angmar (2008 and well before Moria) on Nimrodel (what used to be considered a medium populated server at that time) i was briefly in a kin called, "Malice."  weekdays we had roughly 25 active players online & on weekends we would get up to 50-ish.  at that time we were not considered one of Nimrodels big kins, but those numbers beat out most kins nowadays.

so when you say large (are you including deadlist names that don't actually play?) how many are actually online in game?

On 3/28/2019 at 2:54 AM, Altreg01 said:

My kin is fucking huge, 22 pages of characters, but I'd guess 19 of those pages are players that have not logged on since long before Moria dropped, so right there 80% of my kin which formed at launch doesnt play anymore

so this isn't on the legacy server then?  which server?

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21 hours ago, Doro said:

Did a Turtle run, it seems like it just has more health and a bigger stacking bleed, but is practically still no issue for a pug to run. There was no real reason to have even closed this one to begin with if that's all they've done.

On Evernight I took my level 120 Hunter in for a bit of fun, it took longer to get from the start of the instance to the Turtle than the fight.

Also soloed the Watcher just to get the gear for cosmetic reasons as I had never kill him before.  

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The watcher video was from 2009, recording software had a much bigger impact on much worse client rigs back then. I only posted to highlight the morale levels attainable back when it was last balanced and point out that radiance gear meant little choice in stats and certainly no stat capping. 

It was the only game in town then, we had to grind unlock the disappointing turtle soon after and DN came much later.

We had months waiting for Turbine to fix the door exploit in the majority of the 6-mans, months of Watcher 1 that had no heavy tank role.  I was desperate to get my main involved in raiding again and not leading on my 3rd alt, hunter.

I've been playing this engine since 2001 so am familiar with it. Started playing it on dialup even and sometimes I get all nostalgic riding through MT :)

The engineer interview does highlights the preference of DDO amongst the staff but unfortunately does bring out the preconception that the accent equates to intellect. Over years the anniversary interviews have had several staff members talk of a friend at Turbine getting them to apply for jobs there. Like it's who you know not what you know and if you are going to have to downsize someone is it going to be your friend or the guys who keeps on about the issues with the game?

Mac

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Yeah sorry. What I meant was it isn't just visible names in the social panel it also includes anons. I concur with your correction on my post. Not sure how it came out like that. Posting way too late in my evening.

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1 hour ago, Macdui101 said:

The watcher video was from 2009

no worries, i bet everyone still turns the graphics down.  the animations an all the movement is just soo stiff looking. & i can't not see all the frame hitching all the time.

i am also not a fan of combat animation static and lots of effects, but unless you know the swapping that happens in that fight, nothing of the combat visually highlights the work happening.  & thankfully that video edits out some of the scripted animations (bridge break, etc.) of phase/stage changes, as i am pretty sure that would highlight the lag even further.

that said, i think most of the nostalgia isn't the actual raid itself, but rather the road to; initially requiring you to run all the (frankly better) instances to pass the radiance gate, so you wouldn't cower non stop.  because of the whole loot issues, it required many previous instances run multiple times each just to get a team up to speed. whilst it must have been a finally moment for some, that whole grind slaughtered the player-base.

there is a pathology to nostalgia...  ;)  but this particular instance was mostly a gear pass, with a target swapping mechanic to avoid big burst damage...  otherwise it was just a glorified turtle (a tanking roll & DPS race.)

the instances that lead up to watcher were much better.

1 hour ago, Macdui101 said:

I only posted to highlight the morale levels attainable back when it was last balanced

i had to go full screen to see that, and that detail clears up after the video speed processing.

 

1 hour ago, Macdui101 said:

I've been playing this engine since 2001 so am familiar with it. Started playing it on dialup even and sometimes I get all nostalgic riding through MT

yeah Minas Tirith and it's before, during and after battle versions (each one has loads of assets) & the absolute mass of objects and mob AI they decided to load onto Pelennor fields, not to mention all the room plug ins and other noise...  it is a nightmare on most systems.  >.>

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Part of our transition to the final phase had our champs with a long CD skill to negate damage from the 12 tentacles. Might have been an item clicky or maybe a horn, not sure which now. Often we'd be waiting on one CD or other before proceeding. If melee got aggro on the final two tentacles there was an AE knockback triggered, it would cut dps and possibly leave toons in the roving patrol that would need range to come off target to help them out. We'd learnt that we were all basically squishy classes if we stood in the wrong place so it was key to be always in the sweet spot. One error like an auto attack felling a tentacle at the wrong time could have the watcher on full corruptions and healed to full. But we were mostly a casual kin that played together and stepped up once or twice a week to raid. We had feedback threads we'd all chip in our thoughts developing our own strategies, we made a point of not going outside the kin for help on tactics. As you say it's the whole journey that got us there; the tough Dark Delvings that had 4 or 5 of us switching in kin members to get their last piece as it was a degree or two harder than the other 6 mans. Developing a strategy as a group and putting it into practice and tweaking where needed. The big advantage of radiance was that everyone in the raid was there on merit and not just getting a free ride to the rewards and each member had the confidence of every other member, mostly: Me and Crit at odds over target in the video, I was upside down dangling at the time the other side of the watcher.

If you can bare to dig up the previous ranged strat video, the Watcher was actually hardly in our thoughts for much of the fight. It was execution of a process in each phase and only one ranged tank was on him throughout and offered just a few seconds in each cycle when the raid focused on the watcher. One of the pains was having to wait around for 10 minutes after a wipe for the defeat dread to go away, that made us more careful not to screw up, that and much fewer options for rezzing in combat back then.

That it took us months after the server firsts didn't matter, we were a bunch of n00bs figuring it out ourselves and finally getting our "own" Boss kill. Effort = Reward.

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LasrealLarson do you have player figures for DDO. I'm wondering if they are lower or higher or which game might be propping up which?

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11 hours ago, Macdui101 said:

LasrealLarson do you have player figures for DDO. I'm wondering if they are lower or higher or which game might be propping up which?

truth is both are floundering. but to the meat of the question...

DDO launched February 28 2006:   SOURCE       with 14 servers that were merged down to 8 on July 23 2007:    SOURCE         (just over 1 year and they merged)  DDO Free to Play launched September 9 2009.  no new servers were added.

LotRO Launched April 24 2007 with 24 servers.  LotRO went FTP on September 10 2010 and added 4 servers bringing the active total to 28.  On April 4 2016 Lotro closed 19 servers, consolidating down to 10 servers.

Lotro recently added 2 legacy servers & DDO is considering adding one at some point soon.  Lotros legacy servers had a negative impact on the total player numbers at Lotro (after the initial and brief surge)  will it be the same for DDO?  likely.

if you go read DDOs forums, you will see thread after thread begging for merges, or solutions to the dead feeling of some of those 8 worlds & difficulties finding groups, etc.

the only site i know of that actually tracked DDO's numbers stopped back in 2015, so no comparison for the past almost 4 years. but here is a graphic of what was tracked:

image.png.f370130e19aa42e5c2efa8c4c97280d3.png

which can be found at THIS SITE!

the only current comparison is STEAM numbers & for both Lotro and DDO they show a fraction of the actual player-base as both games are older and predate STEAM  & have a low STEAM conversion rate compared to newer games.  STEAM is better for generic player trends, than actual populations.

so with all those tidbits out of the way...

from my outsider observations...  back during LotROs launch year i would have said LotRO had anywhere from 5 to 8 times the actual player population of DDO & that factor was true about right up until Helms Deep.  then that factor began to diminish as time passed.  currently i would say LotRO has about 3 or 4 times the player population of DDO.

but neither game is actually pulling in massive player numbers, so it is entirely about the revenue generated off the existing small player base.

and lastly i will bring in a quote from Alywen:

On 3/2/2015 at 1:24 PM, Aylwen said:

How did (and still do) Asheron's Call and DDO stay in terms of playerbase size, compared to LOTRO?.

 

I can't guess at current figures. I do know that prior to DDO f2p, AC was beating DDO's concurrency averages whenever I looked at the boards. AC has an incredibly loyal core of players and we used to envy the little AC team, as they were off the radar and could, it seemed, do as they pleased to keep their players engaged.

 

On 3/1/2015 at 5:35 PM, Aylwen said:

Kate and F2P

Kate got lots of attention for the DDO f2p transition. A cynic might suggest that the Paizs had flat lined DDO already and when Ascherons Call's concurrency numbers are beating DDO on a nightly basis, you can only go up from there. LOTRO was certainly ailing when they made the call to go f2p. We all assumed it would happen eventually but not so soon. In March or thereabouts in '10 an email went out from Crowley stating that LOTRO's US subs were down to around 85k (the only time specific sub numbers were ever mentioned even in-house while I was there)

so right up until the FTP transition of DDO in September 2009 Ashrons Call was beating DDO for player numbers.  Ashrons Call had the plug pulled January 2017.

anyway Macdui, you have been around since the days of Ashrons Call and that is years longer than i.  i have never played Ashrons Call, or DDO & i only began LotRo back in March of 2008 with a 2 week free trial...  don't think i actually first subbed until May or June of same year.  so clearly you have stuck with this company as it does something more for you, then it does for me.

regardless, both current games have floundering player-bases, neither is propping up anything...  it basically comes down to the diehards in BOTH games who spend more than they would on a monthly sub. & i suspect it is a very small handful in BOTH games that spend more than a couple hundred every month.  who knows, maybe there is one or two or a few fat whales that actually play BOTH and dumps over a grand in each month.

or maybe with all the lootbox and for pay features, foreign criminal entities are using BOTH as a laundry service & getting kickbacks as or via investors.

but from an actual active player number...  neither game props up anything.

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God how I miss intelligent, thoughtful and incisive posts that the OF are bereft from the culling over the years.

Hugely grateful for your input and citations.  AC and AC2 never had a store in my day and without any more than the couple in the basement who kept them going were never likely to have. My inference of their demise.

I quit AC for AC2 and AC2 after the first expansion when WOW beta started. I have fond memories from both titles and actually  made some friends in AC that took the same journey on to Lotro. The last quit in 2010/11. I had tended to play an MMO for around a couple years before moving on. The lifetime sub seemed such a crazy thing for a company to offer but it was for the two years that I'd likely stick around. So I'm a lifer and that made me stick around on and off.

I hated Kate Piaz for ftp, however her intent was different from how it's played out. It's like she made a gun to be used in self defence but it has ended up in the hands of a greedy, dumb kid.

To an extent having signed up to a lifetime account I felt obliged to stick with it and the f2p model had me rolling (a hangover from rolling dice to make a AD&D character) a f2p character just to get the different perspective and be able to appreciate there restrictions. It had become frustrating organising kin activities when players had content deficiencies. Something that at the least the LS servers have going for them.

The reason for my question:

It's obvious that the ED and CM prefer DDO. I was playing AD&D like Sev back in '79/'80 but I stopped soon after. My guess is that it was far more popular in the States. With the in house boss doing the hiring and firing being a DDO guy I'd think he'd prefer a DDO fan in an interview and be able to judge abilities and knowledge. Someone who got past level 20 in Lotro and has seen the films might eclipse Sev's endeavours in the game and seem a sure thing to him.

I know Jack Emmert has a bad rep with the "official" Daybreak games but I wonder if he's ever had underlings who were so clueless about the game they were running before. If you know a game inside out you have a better chance of putting the squeeze on and judging how much the player base can withstand. Ofc it could just be Emmert forcing the changes through but it couldn't but help to have a Lotro fan at the helm at SSG. Maybe Jack could bring that about? With a hint or two.

That's if anyone wants to save the game...

Mac

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On 3/29/2019 at 12:46 PM, LasraelLarson said:

 

so this isn't on the legacy server then?  which server?

This is on the LS, Anor.  Yes my kin WAS one of the spammer kins (which thankfully stopped a good month ago).  Good mix of causal and hardcore players, quite a few that have been around a while, some still play live servers, many are old school returning for one last shot.  Like I was stating above, I'd bet its a good snapshot of the server overall with better than 80% that stopped in and gave it a shot now long gone. Did a Turtle PUG a few days back and it was good to see that Doro character there :)

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2 hours ago, Altreg01 said:

This is on the LS, Anor.

i was referring to this:

On 3/28/2019 at 2:54 AM, Altreg01 said:

My kin is fucking huge, 22 pages of characters, but I'd guess 19 of those pages are players that have not logged on since long before Moria dropped, so right there 80% of my kin which formed at launch doesnt play anymore

anyway...   how many actually play in your kin on the Legacy server today?

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On 4/1/2019 at 8:39 AM, Macdui101 said:

LasrealLarson do you have player figures for DDO. I'm wondering if they are lower or higher or which game might be propping up which?

My experience working on the European service was that DDO was very much propped up by LotRO. My understanding was that this was also the case for Turbine in the US. Our understanding was that the FtP and the microtrans shop went live in DDO first as a way of testing and honing the tech before deployment to LotRO.

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:43 PM, Macdui101 said:

You couldn't pay me to watch her sowing stream to find out which she is making.

Mac

During some recent research...  Apparently some 130 hours of kilt streaming later it's a short skirt no tartan and odd extras sown on the front.

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