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Talisman

Be Virtuous!

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I think this posts sums it up nicely:

Quote

 

Note: I know that it might not be finished yet but the current Beta Build is very concerning.

1. There are now 60 levels instead of 20 per virtue.
2. You now receive a passive bonus for every virtue that is not equipped, meaning you might want to level every single Virtue to the maximum level to get its passive bonus. It might not be much of a bonus but it is a bonus regardless.
3. There is a new virtue (Wit) that will be Level 0 at the beginning.
4. You only get 1000 Virtue XP per deed and at a certain point you need more than 1000 XP per virtue per level which means you need more than 1 Deed per Virtue Level.
5. I'm pretty sure there aren't even enough Deeds in the game to get all 21 Virtues to Level 60 from Level 0 if you're a new player.

The new Virtue System doesn't even address the most relevant point in my opinion. Why are Virtues not Account-Wide? Does anyone really think that people will do the entire Deed Log for maximum virtues on multiple chars? This has always been the argument why people disliked doing Virtues. I don't have a problem doing virtues once ... but once per character is unfun.
All of this combined and we've got the single most grindy system that has ever existed in this game, forget about LI Scroll of Empowerment Grind, that is nothing compared to this.

 

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=7934324#post7934324

What the OP fails to note is the motivation for the changes: to drive people to the store. Now the deeds will be designed so that you can't get to max level on all virtues, and will need a tome of VXP or a VXP accelerator to get there.

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Bottom line it's 75 (virtue earning) deed completions or store bought virtues to get to the new max of 60. It's around 34 completions on live to have it at max on BR second build. The 34 completions is assuming there are enough in game right now to get it that high, there aren't for many of them is my guess.

LP rich players could cope but you're only LP rich if you are a whale or a VIP who's not used up LP to offset the other grinds, ILI and Essences. If you copped out of those aspects of the game you are hardly likely to engage in another grind sub-system.  

It's that with all the talk going on about how utterly demoralising the alt levelling up to the cap is that they can only come up with a systems that only worsens the prospect.

 

Subject to change in the next build... ha! 

 

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10 hours ago, Urwendil said:

Blessed was the day I walked out of this wreck.

My thoughts exactly.

21 hours ago, Talisman said:

I think this posts sums it up nicely:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?&postid=7934324#post7934324

What the OP fails to note is the motivation for the changes: to drive people to the store. Now the deeds will be designed so that you can't get to max level on all virtues, and will need a tome of VXP or a VXP accelerator to get there.

Thanks for posting that.  I can't wait to see how people try to polish this turd on the OF.

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I would guess that i am like a lot of people that have used the same virtues for years, in fact I cant remember the last time I changed them.  These changes are not going to make me want to start using many different ones.  I will set it to max out the virtues that I use now, then after that just fill up any random one.

I see it being even better for new players or new alts as you can just focus on the few that you actually want.

It may also give me a reason to go back and complete older deeds as the rewards will be of use rather than just virtues that I have no need for.

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According to the op at official forums Even if one doesn't equip a virtue it will still give him a bonus, to me it seems like they want people to grind all the virtues there are.

the virtues system isn't bad but it should have been account wide.

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I don't think I have the heart to continue in this game. It's just not fun. No way I try to make it so, gives this to me. Not even logging on to talk with players I've known a fair portion of my life gets me passed just how fuckin bad this game has become. The only real thing left for me is to decide who to give all my stuff to before I delete my characters.

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8 hours ago, berry said:

According to the op at official forums Even if one doesn't equip a virtue it will still give him a bonus, to me it seems like they want people to grind all the virtues there are.

the virtues system isn't bad but it should have been account wide.

I had a quick look at the new virtues on bullroarer and most non equipped virtues gave a modest morale bonus. It looks like the sort of system that could have been fun if it was well balanced and supported by a foundation of engaging gameplay. Since neither is true any longer, I'm sure it will just be a hideous grind.

I've always been steadfastly against account wide virtues - I've enjoyed played alts as their own separate characters, especially during the 50/60 caps when virtues provided "something to do" to progress characters at cap. If I haven't actually done X on one character, I don't want credit for it.

In any case, my main objection is that if a system is so horrible that it requires external fixes (account shared, store, etc) then I'd rather see the system be fixed instead.

 

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As it stands on BR you could be Middle-earth's greatest deed completionist and when you hit cap you'll have gotten around rank 25/60 on all virtues and some alt veteran slacker gets rank 50 on them the day U24 goes live.

It's all about harvesting the morons and attempting to garner support for the system by the old timers who get a skewed initial rank. Sap/Cord have done their best to get rid of those who don't rely on belief systems to arrive at their opinions, I will expect those who have exposed them will be joining us soon.

It's like the rep you need at each new area' if you don't use rep accelerators throughout you end up half way to kindred. Virtues will be earn half from what's available in game and half from the store.

But e-commerce rules the roost the devs and systems guys can knuckle down or walk. 

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1 hour ago, Macdui101 said:

As it stands on BR you could be Middle-earth's greatest deed completionist and when you hit cap you'll have gotten around rank 25/60 on all virtues and some alt veteran slacker gets rank 50 on them the day U24 goes live.

It's all about harvesting the morons and attempting to garner support for the system by the old timers who get a skewed initial rank. Sap/Cord have done their best to get rid of those who don't rely on belief systems to arrive at their opinions, I will expect those who have exposed them will be joining us soon.

It's like the rep you need at each new area' if you don't use rep accelerators throughout you end up half way to kindred. Virtues will be earn half from what's available in game and half from the store.

kind of like back when Meghan Jenks/Rodberg said (at the time she may have even believed it to be the truth) tomes & certain items would never be in the store...  it is a slow pulling back of the wool.

it took the drastic changes of Helms Deep for that bucket of ice effect to rattle enough cages.

this new virtue (yet another) grind system apparently it is still incomplete.... yeah right!  the time on the wool pullback here is going to be much faster.  most of those (...still) here since the FTP transition are wise to it, but some folk will still be in for a shock.  regardless, i think this will have a similar proportional detrimental effect on the player-base.  the percentage drops in numbers pre & post HD, should be similar to these new realities.

and i find myself in a similar position to the conclusion of GoT...  oddly enjoying watching the nails being driven in.

1 hour ago, Macdui101 said:

But e-commerce rules the roost the devs and systems guys can knuckle down or walk. 

walk to where though?  isn't the bulk of the current employed central & key usefulness, their knowledge of the patchwork state of an 2+ decades old game engine and client?

the 2 games (Lotro & DDO) could not really be transferred to any other set of (studio) employees because of the legacy code in play.

to shake off that relic status and actually be useful in a modern setting?  like resurrecting a fossil.  ;)

if they were capable of walking, it would have happened already.  not really knuckling down as much as swallowing the bullet when the alternatives may look something like:

image.png.50b025b3eba3befcbfe0d2294170dbf0.png

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If you still play then knock out those unfinished virtue deeds.

 

Cord has used the term "Ahead of Parity" with the conversion of old virtues into the new system. Really skewed would be my translation. Getting a little over twice the rank that the new system costs would indicate, rank 55+/60 instead of rank 26/60 for a completionist . If you do want to level Wit, then maybe save a few deeds off from completing but you're not getting the same return once U24 goes live.  

Earning at endgame with dailies looks ok if your have taken advantage of these inflated ranks. Levelling a new toon with few virtues and only access to festivals for extra VXP doesn't look so great, as your earning potential will have halved from the old deeds, they would have to earn 2000 VXP to be fair. But buy a Valar item at 49, 94 and 104 though and you'll get a deluge of VXP to max out several virtues.

The economics is just plain weird, not going to allow virtue purchases in the store. Yet giving VXP hand over fist to a valared char.

Mac 

PS Solvents on sale this week. I got one to drop this week too, first in several weeks of soloing.

 

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Would it not be better the finish the ones that you  want the virtue for, and for the ones where you dont use that virtue get them close to finished so that when the change goes live you can finish them on mass to get the new virtue, assuming that it is any good.

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Good plan if the main stats on virtue don't change before the patch and we see what the placeholder passives will be. It will mean you loose out something on the 2 times more progress you get before patch. I'll get to a point where I have a stack to finish off last thing before the update and make a decision one way or another the day before. 

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On 5/25/2019 at 3:28 AM, cossieuk said:

Would it not be better the finish the ones that you  want the virtue for, and for the ones where you dont use that virtue get them close to finished so that when the change goes live you can finish them on mass to get the new virtue, assuming that it is any good.

 

On 5/25/2019 at 5:03 PM, Macdui101 said:

Good plan if the main stats on virtue don't change before the patch and we see what the placeholder passives will be. It will mean you loose out something on the 2 times more progress you get before patch. I'll get to a point where I have a stack to finish off last thing before the update and make a decision one way or another the day before. 

i haven't done a single thing differently.

i usually make very short term goals (one month at best) and reassess those as things go forward.

haven't been deed focused the past 3 months, and assuming there will be an advantage to burn out the deeds now, may be premature.  ;)

latest from Barbara "Tybur" Thompson:

Quote
Tybur is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
 
 
Quote

 

Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
Is this correct?

The ways to gain virtue experience going forward once Update 24 arrives are:

- Deeds (none of which will be available to completionists save those from the new region)
- Festivals (which are only available at limited times)
- The new endgame quests (which won't be available with the launch of Update 24)
- Featured Instance Challenge quests (which are only available when doing 120 Instances, I believe, and realistically will only be possible for a limited subset of the player base)

 

 
You are mostly correct, however endgame quests awarding virtue xp will be available with U24 launch. The initial Vales of Anduin endgame quests include 2 weekly wrappers, each awarding 3000 virtue xp (available once you have completed the quest content to unlock the endgame). There is additional Vales endgame content that will become available later.

the only thing i will assume is the "New Virtue (grind) System" will be alleviated via store purchases.

fully expect (multiple) new packaged sales to aid those currently in a min state, to reach a max state in short order via a store purchase.  ;)

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As of BR3 the current thinking is to get whatever virtues to 20 you can. Any more and you are loosing out on the transfer.

Having effectively halved the amount of in game means to rank up virtues in BR2, the fix was put in; making each deed worth 2000 VXP. However that highlighted the less obvious problem where ranks greater than 20, are getting half the advance on average than U24 would give. So someone with a rank of 20 would need those 20 plus another 8 1/2 deeds to max that virtue. Someone at 20/31 would need 34 completions and someone at 20/37 would just make max rank in U24. The disparity of 28.5 to 37 deed completions demonstrates how they seem to just hate people who actually play the game. Worse would be the fact that if you have ranked virtues by doing all the virtue deeds you had nothing but new U24 means to advance while other's would still have a mass of old deeds to knock out.

Subject to change. But hell Sev will push this out next week and it'll be irrecoverable if they don't address it before.

Stop Deeding at 20/20!

Mac

 

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Don't recall this being mentioned here, but almost all virtues got a stat re-shuffle and no longer grant the original stat combos that made players grind out those virtues to begin with. (No morale/phys mitigation bonus from Zeal, no tact/phys mitigations bonus from Innocence, etc). Thankfully I stopped caring long ago, because this is unreal. Who doesn't have stories of saving up deed-accelerators (or even buying them in the store) to specifically grind out specific virtues because you want those specific stats. Replaced now with all kinds of random crap (Zeal gives might now, or some situational bullshit like that, good luck to clothies who ground out every Zeal deed for protection stats).

Stat re-shuffle never got mentioned in beta notes or release notes. Of course purposefully so. And so few players give enough damns to still run some beta, that it barely even got mentioned in player-made threads either. Inevitably, those who still care to test Bullroarer are already inbred enough into SSG's "community" to swallow every cock shoved in their throats.

But the re-shuffle of course points to the real motive behind fucking with virtue system to begin with. It's not for improving "quality of life" or "gameplay mechanics", it's to reset everyone's stat assets and make 'em grind again from 0.

What a fun game!

 

 

 

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I also noticed there was very little said about all the stats being reshuffled bth I expected those shenanigans. Years ago when Turbine switched light armors from fate to will it was pretty much for the same reason you listed.

" to reset everyone's stat assets and make 'em grind again from 0."

Same shit different day.  It gets old with these people (Turbine, SSG) who think they are being tricksie with their dumb ideas. It just brings a bad reality to the definition if innovation.

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I was trying to figure out what angle SSG were intent on. The producer's letter brought on cries that it was to limit LP earning. Next it was to promote the store sales and then they unpublish virtue tomes in store. Yet you can still exploit the valar items to increase virtues but I still can't figure out any other angle than to just have more to grind and keep people online at all costs. And to give Tybur her first big project, for the resume.

What has not changed is a poorly implemented change that goes out it's way to shaft as many folk as it can. Except if you are a long term store junky.  There were some serious maths failings at the start of beta, they had to be lead to see what they were doing but we get it released too soon anyway.

Can peeps bare to catch the Live Stream and ask Cord to run through the Virtue Panel tomorrow, it'll be a laugh I promise!

It's bizzare that my two characters that have been completionists with their deeding are so far behind the two that are deed slackers now.

But I can live with the odd virtue having their stats completely changed because my virtues have always been kept high. But it does suck if you  just chased specific virtues and stopped at 20 like anyone coming late to the game would likely do, if wanting to get to end-game asap.

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Splay said:

Years ago when Turbine switched light armors from fate to will

Damn that's brutal, when was that? What was the will stat originally?

And does anyone know what stats are in new "wit" virtue? My guess is probably something universally useful that got stripped off existing virtues, just to spread the grind across as wide a margin as can be.

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18 minutes ago, Wrath of Winter said:

Damn that's brutal, when was that? What was the will stat originally?

And does anyone know what stats are in new "wit" virtue? My guess is probably something universally useful that got stripped off existing virtues, just to spread the grind across as wide a margin as can be.

I think I remember it being something like phys mast, tact mast, crit, and finesse, but I can't be sure because I gave them all a glance and they were all different now.

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1 hour ago, Wrath of Winter said:

Damn that's brutal, when was that? What was the will stat originally?

And does anyone know what stats are in new "wit" virtue? My guess is probably something universally useful that got stripped off existing virtues, just to spread the grind across as wide a margin as can be.

No doubt I'll get some of the timeline wrong as it was near a decade ago. Maybe 2009, with the addition of the RK and Warden but in successive updates through Moria. LM had always used Will and Minstrel mainly used Fate but somewhere along the way the RK didnt seem to fit in the Light Armour scheme. Also the added quandary of the Warden's place in the main attributes made it more complicated. Will stat had incombat power regen which is why LM's focused on it. The remainder, I long forgot due to me not really playing one all that much. Mastery fed off of Fate but, I don't think Mastery was all that evolved at that point to what it is today. As a Minstrel back at that time, I focused on Fate, Vitality, Will, Agility, Might. Pretty much in that order. Later on it became Will, Vitality, switching the two to what ever suited the purpose and player ideology. Finesse appeared around the same time as additions to pvp stats. Mainly Audacity and the intro of Diminished Returns, which by the way broke within 90 days, to never be fixed.

Virtues of the past didn't include Finesse. Wit and a few others today do. SSG knew they needed Finesse to be included but damn, all this bullshit didn't need to take place to get them a spot in the old existing list. They could have just added an additional stat to each Virtue and made them be appropriately placed. Instead they added a new so-called bonus which is mostly just a small amount of Morale. Saying all our Virtues will be contributary even if not slotted. Somehow my Minstrel's Morale seems lower today than a week ago.

Most of my Virtues sit at 58 and 59 and a few between 55 and 58. Maybe 3 of them. Seeing all of the Virtues have been shuffled, I haven't bothered fine tuning the choices for my Minstrel. Don't need to. All of the Vales of Anduin is straight up face roll territory.

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I don't play a Beorning but just say someone coming late to the game has one as their main and wants to make their own armour. Goes through all the hassles of an unfinished class for years and then suddenly after 120 levels they are a Heavy Armour wearer now. Sure they can use medium but  they can't make heavy, so it's change professions and grind out Metalwork from scratch and think hard about switching guild and grind that out too. Absolutely no consideration of the impact their decisions have because none but a few care two figs for the game.

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I had some fun in game yesterday, yeah it's true.  I'm working on old virtue deeds on a character who is my least accomplished deeder.

There's a roving threat dude on an Island in Central Gondor. He has 2 mill morale and reflects 25% of all damage.  And I needed to do it on my champ...

Now anyone would put out a call for a group but I'm more about overcoming/creating my own personal challenges. I have a second f2p account with one char at 118, mostly retired, stopped grinding LP on it years ago. But is a bod to make use of, but only a hunter so not much use for this challenge on the face of it.

After several abject failures with these two characters I was considering buying a light steed on the f2p char because their blue spec has some healing. No, not worth it, lets think more.

Lets use the game mechanics. Specifically I need to get the RT down to low morale so that his run speed is down to a crawl to give me time to log the toon that needs the kill to be in game for the killing blow. I've soloed this particular mob on Guardian torturously slowly and easily on the mini before , both mounted. The Guard having to ride off dozens and dozens of times to replace the pony.  

The f2p char is in the group so the encounter doesn't reset when the mini has finished doing his thing and logs out. Can run (walk) him around while the champ is loading, setup auto grouping between the two chars to make sure of the kill for the loading champ.

There were a couple of stumbles that a flop and rezz dealt with and then with the minstrel stance dancing throughout managed to get the dude down to 120k and crawling around. Mini mounted healing is completely OP. Hunter had been on auto attack 'til the 200k mark and took off kiteing as the mini logged out. It was all going so well and then muscle memory took over and I put a dot on him, D'Oh! Champ arrived to an empty landscape and an embarrassed hunter. Strategy proved, it wasn't a problem to complete on the following try :)

This toon is going to end up with capped virtues on all but Wit and well into Wit on entering the Vales. Main will not be so far along.

 

Now I'll tell you about the time I washed Forlong's dishes...

 

 

Mac

 

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if you are just starting out, this new system is initially fairly decent as you can slot 5 choices immediately & begin leveling those (one at a time) immediately.  so initially for a new person, getting virtue traits leveled is going to be much quicker than it used to be when a deed was locked to a certain virtue.

if you have just one spec of 5 traits & that is it...  this new system will be OK & less work than previously.

"IF CLAUSE INCOMING!"

"if" virtues remain unchanged (they keep there current values & aren't swapped again) & no other new virtues are added...

&

"if" virtues remain at level 60...  (((they won't but will go up when the level cap goes up, so you'll be doing more work when the level cap raises.)))

the new system is OK...  "IF"  ;)


for anyone wanting more than one 5 virtue spec, (or even a completionists) SSG just added another massive MASSIVE grind.  & you can bank on the level 60 cap raising with the next level cap increase.

so short term, this new system is going to feel OK.  as time wears on, folk will be as sick of it as they are the LI grind (and every other system grind in this game & there are plenty.)

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