Jump to content
LOTROCommunity
Sign in to follow this  
Almagnus1

WoW 8.2 is releasing against FFXIV Shadowbringers

Recommended Posts

So, WoW is doing something stupid: Releasing a patch against a FFXIV expansion when FFXIV is at it's peak and growing, and WoW is currently in it's worst expansion.  WoW has typically pulled this stunt to squash competition in the past... but I think it's going to be quite the comedic backfire this time around.

So, anyone else want to see the population data for each MMO over the next few months?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm seeing this from the perspective of someone who has never tried FF (any of them, I just don't like the style), and only ever had a free trial for WoW (and, again, I didn't like the style so it didn't keep me), and I can't see how FFXIV will beat WoW. From outside, I just hear no buzz about it, I don't see any cultural impact, I don't know what classes/races there are, I don't see talk about it on other sites I frequent, I don't even know when they have expansions (is this their first one?). Honestly, I couldn't name a thing about it, which would be odd for a game that's supposed to be so popular.

The numbers would interest me, but I've got a feeling if we looked at pure "western" logins it would lean much more heavily in WoW's favour. A lot of games lately seem more tailored to the much larger Asian market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No idea how accurate these numbers are.  Final Fantasy is popular all over the world, so plenty of people willing to try it at least.

I gave it a go, being a huge fan of the single player games, but it was not for me.  I did like the fact that you can play all of the classes on one character. 

https://ffxivcensus.com/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does FFXIV have any kind of free trial?  Now that I've got a better computer, I'm interested in trying it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Doro said:

I'm seeing this from the perspective of someone who has never tried FF (any of them, I just don't like the style), and only ever had a free trial for WoW (and, again, I didn't like the style so it didn't keep me), and I can't see how FFXIV will beat WoW.

It's a mix of several things as BfA is largely considered the worst WoW expansion, and WoW:Retail has driven off a lot of players - as the recent population surge in FFXIV is largely due to WoW refugees that like it and stay.

Ironically, WoW:Classic is probably going to do a number on WoW:Retail's population, but since you need a WoW sub either way, it's also going to mask how badly WoW:Classic is screwing things up for Blizzard.

9 hours ago, Doro said:

From outside, I just hear no buzz about it, I don't see any cultural impact, I don't know what classes/races there are, I don't see talk about it on other sites I frequent, I don't even know when they have expansions (is this their first one?). Honestly, I couldn't name a thing about it, which would be odd for a game that's supposed to be so popular.

I'm not terribly surprised, as FFXIV tends to be a bit under the radar which is why it's getting as large as it is.  That, and if you aren't into JRPGs, then FFXIV is probably not a game you're going to be watching for (that said, the Heavensward expansion had a really good storyline to it... provided you could slog through the initial storyline).

9 hours ago, Doro said:

The numbers would interest me, but I've got a feeling if we looked at pure "western" logins it would lean much more heavily in WoW's favour. A lot of games lately seem more tailored to the much larger Asian market.

To be fair, this isn't so much tailored to the Asian market, it's just that SquareEnix is a Japanese company with a ton of hits, and this is their second MMO entry into the Final Fantasy Franchise, and this was exported to the rest of the world.

1 hour ago, cossieuk said:

No idea how accurate these numbers are.  Final Fantasy is popular all over the world, so plenty of people willing to try it at least.

I gave it a go, being a huge fan of the single player games, but it was not for me.  I did like the fact that you can play all of the classes on one character. 

https://ffxivcensus.com/

That's actually absurdly low because:

Quote

* (Any reference to "Active" characters, refers to characters that have claimed the "Dress-up Raubahn" mount from the 4.1 story)

For that to happen, a player must either buy the skip straight to Stormblood, and completed the last expansion, or gone through something like 300 quests, so the actual active character count is rather low considering how many newer players I keep seeing in the game - and you can get a sense for how far into the story that is by looking at https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Main_Scenario_Quests .  At best, that shows us the endgame/current population.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The marketing and PR for FFXIV is full on, especially pre expansion launch.  To the point it almost become relentless.  I have friends, who don't even play MMORPGs , mention that they see advertisements all the time for the game (youtube feeds, etc.)  With the news that they have reached their highest subscription numbers, buzz is at an all time high and I'd say it's impact on MMORPG culture is huge, given--outside of WoW--it's the only game that is still subscription based and still growing in population.  A lot of critics point to FFXIV as a benchmark on how to treat their customers (there were immediate comparisons between the disastrous Blizzcon and FFXIV fan fests just as one example).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/19/2019 at 8:06 AM, cossieuk said:

No idea how accurate these numbers are:

https://ffxivcensus.com/

well if you look at STEAM: https://steamcharts.com/app/39210#All 

25,599 peak concurrent players being the all time peak...  and the FREE Trial option  on the  steam store...  i would say they are certainly in the ballpark, though North America is overstated.  there are no hard subscriber or concurrency numbers, but Japan has the largest server cluster facility & Europe the smallest with NA in the middle.  https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/worldstatus/  when sussing out population, look for stories regarding actual server numbers &/or complaints regarding certain worlds being/feeling dead, or low activity.  with regard to FFXVI, the data center matters more than the actual individual server.  look at EU for FFXVI, they are trying to get more players to filter too Chaos over Light.  in NA it is  Crystal.  Japan is rather open compared to the previous 2.

it should also be noted both ESO & Black Desert regularly beat FFXVI on STEAM.  both these games have moved to mega server infrastructure, so finding the data center info is obscured.

i have always found FFXVI's forward facing spin regarding actual numbers to be more hot air than fact.  a lot of vagaries, rather than actual hard subscription &/or concurrency numbers.  what you do hear is accounts created, which doesn't mean shit in game with a free to create account option, nor is it realistic with regard to people actually playing the game.  how many of those accounts have more than an hour of game-play? more than a day?  more than a week?  more than one month?

accounts created doesn't mean jack shit & if i were to RANK the top 5 based on information available:

 

1.) World of Warcraft (more than double the actual players in game than any single one of those that come next! & the hype over classic has had a positive net effect.)

 

2.) Elder Scrolls Online ( been really gaining strength in players over the past year.)

3.) Black Desert Online (not just one global region to pay attention to, but 3: NA & EU    Turkey, Middle East and North Africa region  &  South America

4.) Final Fantasy XVI (based on any hard evidence to actual people playing the game, yes, i rank this one here.)

5.) Guild Wars 2 (this one is very hard to find any source for numbers on, but having actually seen first hand activity IN ACTUAL GAME, this one is still in the top 5.)

 

again FFXVI is great at making noise, but actual signal is what that title lacks.  i don't care if people tried the game for free, how many stuck and are now either subs, or part of daily concurrency numbers?

one last interesting bit of data from STEAM: TOP Grossing Revenue Games (2018)


with regard to WoW launching a big update right next to FFXVI's expansion?  ESO also just launched Elsweyr.  GW2 is resurrecting older popular events.  i have seen recent news from several titles...  & i am completely OK with competition.  weaklings getting quashed...  IMO... would be a good thing. (& by weaklings i mean those outside of the top 5 who are likely to suffer more.)

let them fight!  ;)

given SSG has Lotro with the feature raid currently (Anvil) out of commission & a Summer fest with an instance that will be ground for a pocket item (and now potentially virtue XP) & DDO just past launched their Sharn Expansion...  it is doubtful they will gain much during all these titles firing their guns simultaneously.

i am all for it!  let the cream rise & the dross fall.

this also forces people to spend a little more time assessing the value of which title to invest their time into.  only downside to this is avoiding hard data in favor of hype, hype that is a lot of hot air (noise) and little substance (signal of actual numbers.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

again FFXVI is great at making noise, but actual signal is what that title lacks.  

 

I'm not sure if I agree with this statement.  They wouldn't be able to keep making "noise" as you say--year after year--if something wasn't sticking.  Yoshi-P recently stated that they had to add extra servers to the EU datacenter because sub numbers before the expac launch had hit an all-time high for the game. Nobody gives actual, active sub numbers and I don't expect SE to start now.  It is what it is, but he is not known for blowing smoke out of his ass just for the sake of it. Also, they recently added whole new datacenters--you don't continue to expand your infrastructure if the game isn't progressing.

People using Steam to play FFXIV feels like a rarity these days, so I'd wager that 25K figure is a very small percentage of the overall playerbase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

well if you look at STEAM: https://steamcharts.com/app/39210#All 

25,599 peak concurrent players being the all time peak...  and the FREE Trial option  on the  steam store...  i would say they are certainly in the ballpark, though North America is overstated.  there are no hard subscriber or concurrency numbers, but Japan has the largest server cluster facility & Europe the smallest with NA in the middle.  https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/worldstatus/  when sussing out population, look for stories regarding actual server numbers &/or complaints regarding certain worlds being/feeling dead, or low activity.  with regard to FFXVI, the data center matters more than the actual individual server.  look at EU for FFXVI, they are trying to get more players to filter too Chaos over Light.  in NA it is  Crystal.  Japan is rather open compared to the previous 2.

I'd have to disagree with this as the Steam client is STRONGLY discouraged because there's actually two sets of PC keys, Steam and non-Steam... which means that if you did what I did and bought the Steam client years ago not knowing any better, you will not get access to any expansion until it is released on Steam.  And even then it's been a complete cluster trying to get the expansions registered... which means that the Steam and non-Steam numbers for PC/Macs are going to be quite different compared to what we'd expect to see in another MMO.  And as an FYI, you must also purchase a license to play on the PS4.

Speaking of which, the PS4 players are a fairly large userbase, and I wouldn't be surprised if they exceeded the number of Steam players by a very large margin, so the Steam chart numbers aren't accurate.  Throwing in https://freetrial.finalfantasyxiv.com/na/ , and it's entirely possible to not play on Steam (and with how SE handles the Steam/non-Steam stuff you're better off not getting the Steam client in this case).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

again FFXVI is great at making noise, but actual signal is what that title lacks.

I have no idea where this noise is being made, because I see none of it beyond what Al posts here. I'd say I've even seen more talk of Monster Hunter Online than I have for FFVIX. In fact, MMOs in general seem to be getting less and less attention from gamers on the boards I visit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Papi said:

they had to add extra servers to the EU datacenter because sub numbers before the expac launch had hit an all-time high for the game

the EU cluster is still the smallest with only 2 "Hubs" of clustered servers, Chaos & Light.  NA has 3 clusters, as well as Japan, but each of Japans clusters house more servers per.

and with each of those clusters, you can see they are directing players on EU and NA to one in particular.  https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/worldstatus/

now if they add another data center, that would be far more significant!  new servers on the same data center, isn't nearly as impressive.  because if it is number of server names, Japan is still out in front.

Japan = 32 servers (3 data centers)

NA = 24 servers (3 data centers)

EU = 12 servers (2 data centers)

1 hour ago, Papi said:

People using Steam to play FFXIV feels like a rarity these days, so I'd wager that 25K figure is a very small percentage of the overall playerbase.

and yet the flow of STEAM player activity does correspond to an "Oceanic" peak time, which is the Japanese (server cluster) players.  so it is indicative or reflective of something larger.  that being the large Asian audience for this title.

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

there's actually two sets of PC keys, Steam and non-Steam... which means that if you did what I did and bought the Steam client years ago not knowing any better, you will not get access to any expansion until it is released on Steam.

then it is up to FFXIV team to do just that, if they don't want that service lagging behind, which it certainly is consistently behind ESO & BDO on STEAM.

so what from this: STEAM LIST is missing?  i even see the new expansion there for purchase already.

59 minutes ago, Doro said:

I have no idea where this noise is being made

reddit is one place they have camped pretty well.  they are good at keeping the usual suspect online gaming zines mentioning the title as well.  none of that accurately reflects how many people are actually in the game playing it however.

59 minutes ago, Doro said:

In fact, MMOs in general seem to be getting less and less attention from gamers on the boards I visit.

so many other things out there now.  Dauntless is the most recent title i noticed getting a good signal to noise ratio & it is reflected in the actual number of players in game.

...

& then you have people like me who leave "Western" market titles like Runescape out of contention, or ignore entirely "Eastern" market titles like Lineage, or Crossfire...

when it comes to gaming, i have to admit, i am a bit of a racist.   if the game design doesn't "privilege" a Western/European aesthetic/design sufficiently i am content to pass it over completely.  still that factor prejudices my view of FFXIV about as much as it does GW2, or BDO in that regard.  so for my top 5 list...  not a factor, though i have no idea why i overlook Runescape.  no clue how many people play it either, but i'd hazard a guess, more than LoTRO anyway.  ;)


one last thing i will say RE: FFXIV...    go to Youtube &/or Twitch & find me evidence of masses of people fighting in a zone, or just anything with a mass of players online in an activity & you will find a it a challenge.   you will see solo stuff, or small raids, but to see masses of players is a rarity.  hard evidence to produce, especially hard to find multiple examples.

evidence that is easy to produce for WoW, or GW2.  probably ESO and BDO as well.

FFXIV is definitely top 5, but it isn't as big as the hype.  hype which is a bit of a circle jerk.  2nd biggest "SUBSCRIPTION" MMO behind WoW, doesn't qualify it as second if you pay attention to the qualifying factor of "SUBSCRIPTION."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

reddit is one place they have camped pretty well. 

Ah, that explains a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

then it is up to FFXIV team to do just that, if they don't want that service lagging behind, which it certainly is consistently behind ESO & BDO on STEAM.

so what from this: STEAM LIST is missing?  i even see the new expansion there for purchase already.

It's more about lag time and other things.  Heavensward was a nightmare, Stormblood was decent, and it was about the same time with Shadowbringers.  What still irks me is that I must buy stuff from the Steam store, or the expansion will not count for my account... which is something I learned the hard way with Stormblood...

52 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

reddit is one place they have camped pretty well.  they are good at keeping the usual suspect online gaming zines mentioning the title as well.  none of that accurately reflects how many people are actually in the game playing it however.

Speaking of, here's a relevant reddit post:

52 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

one last thing i will say RE: FFXIV...    go to Youtube &/or Twitch & find me evidence of masses of people fighting in a zone, or just anything with a mass of players online in an activity & you will find a it a challenge.   you will see solo stuff, or small raids, but to see masses of players is a rarity.  hard evidence to produce, especially hard to find multiple examples.

Most of that content is tied to the fate system, and most of the really big fates tend to get farmed out around launch... which leads landscape content to being relegated to questing and resourcing mostly.  There's not really much in the way of world PvP, as the only PvP we have are matched based (either the 24v24v24 cluster or 4v4 group fights).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LasraelLarson said:

now if they add another data center, that would be far more significant!  new servers on the same data center, isn't nearly as impressive. 

 

as I said, they recently added two new data centers.  One for NA and one for EU.  https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/11cadb280ca20f53f22e0b0885d1ebf675536bb9

 

1 hour ago, LasraelLarson said:

 

find me evidence of masses of people fighting in a zone, or just anything with a mass of players online in an activity & you will find a it a challenge.   you will see solo stuff, or small raids, but to see masses of players is a rarity.  hard evidence to produce, especially hard to find multiple examples.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvv7jjVI60M

^^Eureka final boss (Pazuzu) 144 people in a single instance, multiple instances spread out over the specific data centers.  

The majority of the content in FFXIV isn't designed to have a mass of players online focusing on a single activity in an open world setting--with the exception of Eureka.  With Stormblood brought 4 different iterations of Eureka, 4 new zones all with bosses (i.e. multiple) like the one in the video where the entirety of the instance will group up to take it down.   There are numerous videos out there covering the multiple zones to include the Baldesion Arsenal.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Papi said:

as I said, they recently added two new data centers.  One for NA and one for EU.  https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/11cadb280ca20f53f22e0b0885d1ebf675536bb9

Stuff like this is why I think a lot of people are underestimating the FFXIV population...

FFXIV is really great about doing FFXIV really well, and as Yoshi-P [exec producer] is focused on doing FFXIV well, FFXIV, isn't going to fall into a lot of the other traps that MMOs have done in the past with F2P, and the other features as everything that gets borrowed from another MMO gets properly integrated into FFXIV.  Even the crossovers with other games are done in such a way that they're generally not conflicting with the FFXIV lore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Most of that content is tied to the fate system, and most of the really big fates tend to get farmed out around launch... which leads landscape content to being relegated to questing and resourcing mostly.  There's not really much in the way of world PvP, as the only PvP we have are matched based (either the 24v24v24 cluster or 4v4 group fights).

ah well that explains why i can never find large player battles in FFXIV.  i look for that type of thing to judge engine performance, as syncing issues and the underlying tech structure gets highlighted positively, or negatively in that kind of a situation like nothing else, IMO.

33 minutes ago, Papi said:

as I said, they recently added two new data centers.  One for NA and one for EU.  https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/11cadb280ca20f53f22e0b0885d1ebf675536bb9

ah OK that is significant.

my links include those additions that happened 2 months ago in April of this year.  would also explain all the availability on those 2 server hubs, "Light (EU)" & "Crystal (NA)."

this addition is anticipatory (a positive if there is a big increase in players, especially if it lasts months beyond release) rather than reactionary, like in the case of ESO:

 
Quote

 

So, here is what we are doing to fix the problem:
  • Short term, we are turning on our queuing system (as you saw yesterday), which will cap the maximum number of players allowed on the PC EU megaserver. You should only see the queue at peak times, when demand is higher than the hardware supports. As was posted yesterday, the estimated time to login may not be 100% accurate, but it will give you an idea of how big the line is. ALSO: if you are disconnected from the server for any reason, you should have a twenty minute grace period to log back in and "skip" the queue.
  • Longer term: we are spinning up additional hardware in both our NA and EU datacenters in order to support our growing user base. We expect the time frame for this to be about two weeks, but we will keep you posted. And yes, we are adding more capacity to PC NA as well as EU because we are rapidly approaching the same problem in NA and want to get ahead of it. We will also be looking very closely at our Console megaservers to make sure they have enough capacity.
I know it is frustrating to be stuck in queue, but it is better to do this than have the entire service be unstable and frustrating for everyone. We will do everything we can to get the new hardware online as quickly as possible and stop queuing and have the service return to normal. Stay tuned for details.

Matt
Matt Firor
ESO Game Director

 

 
so if the player-base does increase for FFXIV, having the capacity in place is a good way to keep players from saying screw this mess, i am leaving.  they will find out soon enough as the expansion launches before June expires.
16 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Stuff like this is why I think a lot of people are underestimating the FFXIV population...

the move is anticipatory, rather than reactionary. i do like to see the capacity in place BEFORE the demand occurs.  just how long that capacity will be needed is another thing altogether.  you shouldn't have to wait too long to find out one way or the other.  end of July at the longest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, LasraelLarson said:

ah well that explains why i can never find large player battles in FFXIV. 

See the above videos I posted.  Maybe it's just a matter of knowing what to look for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Papi said:

See the above videos I posted.  Maybe it's just a matter of knowing what to look for.

i may have been using PvP, or WvW as criteria in searches, could explain not finding...  those examples remind me a little of the GW2 world boss fights:

only difference is FFXIV seems to be instanced rather than open world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Doro said:

 In fact, MMOs in general seem to be getting less and less attention from gamers on the boards I visit.

I wonder how much of that is due to younger gamer's being more interested in games like Fortnight and Apex Legends.  People that grew up playing MMOs now dont have the time to spend playing them like they used to

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:

ah well that explains why i can never find large player battles in FFXIV.  i look for that type of thing to judge engine performance, as syncing issues and the underlying tech structure gets highlighted positively, or negatively in that kind of a situation like nothing else, IMO.

That's why SE release a benchmark with the expansions, and the current one is: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/benchmark/?utm_source=lodestone&utm_medium=pc_banner&utm_campaign=na_benchmark .

From what I can tell, this is the ingame engine pushed to it's limits.

3 hours ago, LasraelLarson said:
the move is anticipatory, rather than reactionary. i do like to see the capacity in place BEFORE the demand occurs.  just how long that capacity will be needed is another thing altogether.  you shouldn't have to wait too long to find out one way or the other.  end of July at the longest.

They reshuffled the playerbase so that the datacenters would be seeded with vets prior to the newbies, but if they screw it up, it'll be Raubahn Ex all over again >.<

3 hours ago, cossieuk said:

I wonder how much of that is due to younger gamer's being more interested in games like Fortnight and Apex Legends.  People that grew up playing MMOs now dont have the time to spend playing them like they used to

Half of that, though, is that most MMOs went away from the WoW:Classic style where you needed to use your brain, and actually be able to follow a storyline.  That's one reason why FFXIV is doing well... and also a couple of stones that are thrown against FFXIV.

WoW:BFA, on the other hand, is about as braindead as one can get and still be considered alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, cossieuk said:

I wonder how much of that is due to younger gamer's being more interested in games like Fortnight and Apex Legends.  People that grew up playing MMOs now dont have the time to spend playing them like they used to

I don't see a lot of talk of those sorts of games either, though (excluding use as a sneer or insult). Hell, Minecraft only started getting brought up more often because it's suggested it might be a better game now that the kids are all distracted with Fortshite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, cossieuk said:

I wonder how much of that is due to younger gamer's being more interested in games like Fortnight

World of Warcraft was the first industry Behemoth that managed at its peak 14 million if i recall & got the MMO market a buzz.

then League of Legends shifted the market focus to MOBA's in 2012 with the 32 million number.  the latest claim for 2019 is 80 million, but it is largely hot air.  in 2014 the game plateaued out at around 7.5 - 8 million concurrency.  it hasn't really past that benchmark since 2014, so the 80 million number is right next door to meaningless.  since 2014 LoL has managed to mostly sustain (plateau) its active player-base.

then in May 2017 PUBG initially, then Fortnite stealing the thunder from... shifted the market again to BattleRoyale types.  in short order Fortnite hit the 250 million mark.  more importantly the concurrency numbers pass 8 million with the peak at 10.7 million during...

the fucking marshemello event

... don't spend too much time looking that up, you can thank me for advising the dodge.

so each market shift is because of the orders of magnitude larger the eyes drawn to these games.  at least from an investor perspective anyway.  which drives development.

15 hours ago, cossieuk said:

People that grew up playing MMOs now dont have the time to spend playing them like they used to

doesn't help that industry shifted from running a 3 hour instance based 10% on gear and 90% on mechanical knowledge in play... too...  3 hours of grinding for one stat piece to pass a gear check gated mechanism, to acquire a second piece that allows  to run content allowing you to acquire the 3rd stat piece, that will allow you to run that final raid that requires 90% stats to pass the gate of combat that is essentially the exact same thing, for decades now.  >.>

the shear volume of added treadmills has worn the patience thin of many.

that said, it is true the responsibilities of adulthood make 8 - 12 hour daily gaming sessions unrealistic.

so many factors.

but games that you can jump right into and practice mechanics up front are going to easily steal the thunder.  the upgrades tend to happen after you have jumped on board and DURING the actual play session.  you find weapon in the actual instance to use on Boss. other players, etc.  some games even make you pay for it in loot-crate drops.  sketchy as fuck, but there is that too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×