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Doro

Brexit

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12 minutes ago, Doro said:

It was effectively 5 - 6 days, though. It was done over a recess period when the government wouldn't even be in parliament anyway for most of it.

As far as I remember, there's nothing in the no deal law that says parliament must vote for it, only that Bojo has to formally request an extension. The EU could turn that down, or it seems Bojo has found a way around the wording of the article.

How's about instead of resigning, the other parties can back a General Election? They're so up for democracy and think they know the will of the people, let us decide who should be PM. Methinks they're afraid of losing their seats.

When in recess Parliament can be recalled, and the conferences can be cancelled, Labour has just cancelled the rest of theirs, so business can still be done.  Also proroguing  Parliament puts an end to any bill that is currently in the parliamentary process. unless the Government chooses to carry them over where as recess does not.  12 bills were stopped including one protecting the victims of domestic abuse and 5 bills for post-Brexit arrangements for immigration, fishing, trade and agriculture, only 3 bills were carried over.  The bills can be brought up again but all the work done is lost and they have to start again.  Why would the Government that is determined to leave come hell or high water stop bills that would be necessary for the first day after Brexit

Benn’s Bill states that unless a deal is reached with the EU or Parliament approves a no-deal Brexit by October 19th, the Government would be required to write to the EU seeking an extension to the Article 50 period until January 31st 2020.

The reason that the other parties wont back a General election just now is in case the Tories win a majority and can then pass a no deal Brexit by the 31st.  Why would they risk it when the bill they have passed would stop that from happening

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15 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

When in recess Parliament can be recalled, and the conferences can be cancelled, Labour has just cancelled the rest of theirs, so business can still be done.  Also proroguing  Parliament puts an end to any bill that is currently in the parliamentary process. unless the Government chooses to carry them over where as recess does not.  12 bills were stopped including one protecting the victims of domestic abuse and 5 bills for post-Brexit arrangements for immigration, fishing, trade and agriculture, only 3 bills were carried over.  The bills can be brought up again but all the work done is lost and they have to start again.  Why would the Government that is determined to leave come hell or high water stop bills that would be necessary for the first day after Brexit

Bills not being carried over is an issue with the government choosing not to carry them over, not with prorogation.

15 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Benn’s Bill states that unless a deal is reached with the EU or Parliament approves a no-deal Brexit by October 19th, the Government would be required to write to the EU seeking an extension to the Article 50 period until January 31st 2020.

Exactly, there's a lot of wiggle room with the extension requirement. There's no stipulation involving what the government writes after the fact, for example. Request the extension and then immediately ask for the EU to reject said request, which would still fit within the attempt to undermine Brexit.

15 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

The reason that the other parties wont back a General election just now is in case the Tories win a majority and can then pass a no deal Brexit by the 31st.  Why would they risk it when the bill they have passed would stop that from happening

Exactly. They don't want to see people get a choice in this, regardless of how much they try to act like they're for the people. If they were comfortable believing Britain doesn't want no deal, they'd hold a GE and prove it, but they know they wouldn't win. These bills are put in place to fuck over the British people and send a message to other EU nations that leaving the EU is either unnecessarily difficult and long, or practically impossible.

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We were also told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit and now the same people as saying today's ruling is all about Brexit.  If proroguing Parliament was not about Breixt how can saying that proroguing being cancelled is about Brexit

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1 minute ago, cossieuk said:

We were also told that proroguing Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit and now the same people as saying today's ruling is all about Brexit.  If proroguing Parliament was not about Breixt how can saying that proroguing being cancelled is about Brexit

While it definitely plays a part in it, it's ultimately only viewed as about Brexit because it's completely about Brexit on the opposing side. They're not interested in future plans after Brexit, they only want parliament back so they can keep undermining Bojo's position, throw up more bills to make things harder, and keep up the rhetoric that no one wants a no deal (which they don't want to risk).

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The biggest issue with Brexit is that vast majority of people have no idea how the EU works and how many things they take for granted will change for the worst if we leave with a no deal. 

Here are just a few that will be effected by leaving. 

There are tens of thousand of small schemes around the UK from building roads, building community centres, homeless shelters, drug rehabilitation  centres, specialist disability school etc.. which are vital to local communities which are all funded by the EU.

People who regularly travel abroad will now require visa

Being able to travel and work freely across Europe

The EU funds tens of thousands of research projects

Millions of workers have been protected by the EU emploent laws. 

Compaines being able to being able to work EU clients without having to worry about Vat, Tax and other duties

Compaines being able to transfer funds to EU customers freely and quickly.

Being able to export and import goods quickly and not needing extra checks, licensing etc.. 

Those who think that everything will be fine are deluded. 

Every industry from banking, manufacturing, services etc have all said that leaving with a no deal will be disastrous. 

The problem with Brexit is it has become tribal. All that matters now is to win. 

There has been study after study, report after report from people / organisations / experts that have shown time and again that leaving with No Deal is going cause huge harm to the UK but it doesn't matter anymore. 

It's gone past common sense, it's now all about winning. 

Since Brexit there has been a saying "Not all people who voted for Brexit are racist but all racists votes for Brexit" 

Over the last few months it has never been more relevant. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Validoom said:

The biggest issue with Brexit is that vast majority of people have no idea how the EU works and how many things they take for granted will change for the worst if we leave with a no deal. 

Here are just a few that will be effected by leaving. 

There are tens of thousand of small schemes around the UK from building roads, building community centres, homeless shelters, drug rehabilitation  centres, specialist disability school etc.. which are vital to local communities which are all funded by the EU.

People who regularly travel abroad will now require visa

Being able to travel and work freely across Europe

The EU funds tens of thousands of research projects

Millions of workers have been protected by the EU emploent laws. 

Compaines being able to being able to work EU clients without having to worry about Vat, Tax and other duties

Compaines being able to transfer funds to EU customers freely and quickly.

Being able to export and import goods quickly and not needing extra checks, licensing etc.. 

Those who think that everything will be fine are deluded. 

Every industry from banking, manufacturing, services etc have all said that leaving with a no deal will be disastrous. 

The problem with Brexit is it has become tribal. All that matters now is to win. 

There has been study after study, report after report from people / organisations / experts that have shown time and again that leaving with No Deal is going cause huge harm to the UK but it doesn't matter anymore. 

It's gone past common sense, it's now all about winning. 

Since Brexit there has been a saying "Not all people who voted for Brexit are racist but all racists votes for Brexit" 

Over the last few months it has never been more relevant.

A lot of those points aren't really much of an issue, though. The money the EU gives us for those schemes comes from us to start with, and the government has said they'll continue to honour those and even increase in some areas (then again, that's politicians promising shit, so not a guarantee). Many non-EU nationals can travel around the EU without a visa for up to 90 days, so we could easily get the same. As far as been said, the EU employment laws currently in place are going to stay after we leave. What we can agree with the EU after the fact is still open, too.

Other points I don't see as necessitating being under the EU's thumb. We can contribute to research projects without needing to be politically fused to other nations. Companies not worrying about dealing with VAT/tax isn't a particularly good reason to continue dealing with EU protectionist practices. EU customers getting refunds quickly isn't something to sacrifice sovereignty over, either. Importing/exporting isn't a problem for us with other nations that we don't have political unions with. The EU likes to offer this charade that the only way to have beneficial agreements with them is to wear the collar and leash they provide, but it's pretty much just a ruse to create a federalised Europe.

One I even see as a positive. Freedom to work across the EU has been a problem because of migration of workers from unequal economies going to wealthier nations. With the change to allowing just qualified/needed workers in, there's an instant improvement in the quality of migration to the UK. The downside is no more open borders just so Hunter Smith-Gerald-Smythe Jr can go on his "gap yah" around Europe, but at least we can start to control the influx of low-skilled workers like most sensible nations do.

The irony though of you saying it's become tribal problem, but then also saying people who don't buy into the fear-mongering are deluded and suggesting racists only supported Leave.

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31 minutes ago, Doro said:

One I even see as a positive. Freedom to work across the EU has been a problem because of migration of workers from unequal economies going to wealthier nations. With the change to allowing just qualified/needed workers in, there's an instant improvement in the quality of migration to the UK.

Up front, I'm being genuine with my question--who falls into the "qualified/needed" category of workers?  I know plenty of jobs that UK/British born citizens won't "lower themselves" to do--and will claim benefits instead.  Meanwhile the immigrant looking for a better way of life will work 1, sometimes 2 of those jobs.  Someone has to clean up your shit, serve you your food, dispose of your trash, drive your taxi, stock your grocery stores, deliver your mail, etc. 

 

1 hour ago, Validoom said:

The problem with Brexit is it has become tribal. All that matters now is to win. 



Sadly, tribalism doesn't stop there.  We've divided ourselves into so many "sub groups" any real sense of community is being lost.  So it's easier to paint someone who has a different opinion as "the enemy" or barrage them with insults most people wouldn't have the balls to say to their face.

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And what with all immigrants who just hang on benefits the moment they set foot in UK ?

Y'a know the ones who also like under age girls,knives as way of settling disputes and sharia law ?

I guess that's just part of living in big cities ( like mayor of London said ),or part of living in western countries these days .

 

Edited by ZaklanoSrce
typo

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8 minutes ago, ZaklanoSrce said:

And what with all immigrants who just hang on benefits the moment they set foot in UK ?

Y'a know the ones who also like under age girls,knives as way of settling disputes and sharia law ?

 

According to Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) and HMRC, white British families are the most likely out of all ethnic groups to receive state support.

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6 minutes ago, ZaklanoSrce said:

And what with all immigrants who just hang on benefits the moment they set foot in UK ?

Y'a know the ones who also like under age girls,knives as way of settling disputes and sharia law ?

I guess that's just part of living in big cities ( like mayor of London said ),or part of living in western countries these days .

With leaving the EU, it's only going to stop some of the "refugees" coming in. Just the ones who enter the EU and get citizen after about 5 to 8 years (especially in Germany, where they had that big push to bring in "refugees"), so then become free to live anywhere in the EU. The rest will likely still come, because that's not part of the EU freedom of movement, that's the UK's current shitty immigration system. Mostly, leaving the EU stops the economic migrants from eastern Europe that are looking to make more money here than they do there.

Our issue with Muslim grooming gangs, welfare exploitation, and knife crime likely won't end with leaving the EU. That's going to take pushing out the lefty politicians and putting in people that can actually do what's necessary, which will involve upsetting some for the sake of results.

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5 hours ago, Doro said:

With leaving the EU, it's only going to stop some of the "refugees" coming in. Just the ones who enter the EU and get citizen after about 5 to 8 years (especially in Germany, where they had that big push to bring in "refugees"), so then become free to live anywhere in the EU. The rest will likely still come, because that's not part of the EU freedom of movement, that's the UK's current shitty immigration system. Mostly, leaving the EU stops the economic migrants from eastern Europe that are looking to make more money here than they do there.

Our issue with Muslim grooming gangs, welfare exploitation, and knife crime likely won't end with leaving the EU. That's going to take pushing out the lefty politicians and putting in people that can actually do what's necessary, which will involve upsetting some for the sake of results.

Now you understand why the US wants to build that wall.

5 hours ago, cossieuk said:

In purely financial terms immigrants pay more in taxes than they take in benefits in the UK.

Not if they're illegal immigrants as they get most of the benefits (thanks to defrauding the system) and pay fewer of the taxes.  And they also get treated like slave labor, which causes other social issues from the displaced legal work force (at least in the US).

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Now you understand why the US wants to build that wall.

Not if they're illegal immigrants as they get most of the benefits (thanks to defrauding the system) and pay fewer of the taxes.  And they also get treated like slave labor, which causes other social issues from the displaced legal work force (at least in the US).

I doubt many illegal immigrants are paying tax as tax is collected from your wages by your employer.  Fraud accounts for around 1% of the benefits bill in the UK so even if it was all done by illegal immigrants, which it is not, there would still be a net benefit in financial terms

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2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Now you understand why the US wants to build that wall.

I was already completely on board with the US increasing border security. If Europe was as bad as Central and South America is in terms of crime, I'd want to collapse the Channel Tunnel between us and set up dozens of outposts to watch the coasts again, too.

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Well, the big advantage from a no-deal brexit next month is that we will quickly now if, and to what extent, project fear is just fearmongering and what part is the truth.

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1 hour ago, Thrabath said:

Well, the big advantage from a no-deal brexit next month is that we will quickly now if, and to what extent, project fear is just fearmongering and what part is the truth.

That will be pretty interesting, considering how many of their previous predictions didn't come to pass, and now they've mellowed out now to mild inconveniences when they're being more realistic. I have a feeling it's going to be less damaging initially than anyone has guessed, but if there are any problems then they will form over the  months afterwards as the initial buffers begin to waver. It's that time when new deals are supposed to be made but delays from politicians once again cause more harm than the actual events have.

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2 hours ago, Doro said:

That will be pretty interesting, considering how many of their previous predictions didn't come to pass, and now they've mellowed out now to mild inconveniences when they're being more realistic. I have a feeling it's going to be less damaging initially than anyone has guessed, but if there are any problems then they will form over the  months afterwards as the initial buffers begin to waver. It's that time when new deals are supposed to be made but delays from politicians once again cause more harm than the actual events have.

I fear some people get a lot richer and most of us a little poorer

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2 hours ago, Thrabath said:

I fear some people get a lot richer and most of us a little poorer

If anyone's going to get poorer, it's more likely going to be because of stupid Tory pledges and not Brexit. Shit like this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49881980

Raise the minimum wage for people over 21 and you don't make people wealthier, you just increase living costs proportionally and leave anyone aged 16 to 20 with shitty wages that can't buy as much as it used to. Plus, if you were already on £10.50 an hour, you're going to find your wage now doesn't stretch as far, either. A pledge that sounds good as a talking point to young people that don't usually look any further into promises (hence, their often strong support for Labour), but ultimately harms those very same kids in the long run.

It's frustrating as all hell that if we have GE, the only reason the Tories are going to stay in power is because they're the only ones that will deliver Brexit. That shouldn't be a 5 year long issue after the fact.

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One of the advantages the Dutch system has is that members of parliament and members of government are different persons. Ministers regularly aren't elected people, but those who (okay, theoretically) have more knowledge about their department. Only Prime Minister is always elected though that doesn't is a requirement either.

But most democratic systems have their flaws. In my opinion when public image is way more important than actual policies you start to fail as society - which we are partially doing in the western democracies. But I don't know how to solve this.

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2 hours ago, Thrabath said:

One of the advantages the Dutch system has is that members of parliament and members of government are different persons. Ministers regularly aren't elected people, but those who (okay, theoretically) have more knowledge about their department. Only Prime Minister is always elected though that doesn't is a requirement either.

The UK has sort of the same thing with non-ministerial departments headed by senior civil servants, but even the ministerial departments are staffed mostly by unelected people. It's a problem in that they're pretty much unaccountable to the masses, but the idea the masses ever really had any power is an illusion to start with. Some authoritative bodies will always exist above and outside of the control of the average person. Elections just change the mask on the face.

2 hours ago, Thrabath said:

But most democratic systems have their flaws. In my opinion when public image is way more important than actual policies you start to fail as society - which we are partially doing in the western democracies. But I don't know how to solve this.

A symptom of this is happening right now. We've got a little over 4 weeks until Brexit should (barring any unseen betrayals) happen, but the current agenda for the media? Boris Johnson maybe possibly squeezing a woman's thigh in 1999. His PR team's concern? Whether or not he should be seen holding disposable cups. It's a circus. It's a system built on petty squabbles, tit for tat, and one-upmanship and would take a complete overhaul to correct.

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1 hour ago, Doro said:

His PR team's concern? Whether or not he should be seen holding disposable cups. It's a circus. It's a system built on petty squabbles, tit for tat, and one-upmanship and would take a complete overhaul to correct.

To be fair the clip war really funny, he looked like a kid being told he cant have coffee cause he is not old enough 

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2 hours ago, cossieuk said:

To be fair the clip war really funny, he looked like a kid being told he cant have coffee cause he is not old enough 

It was 100% The Thick of It, but you'd think by now they'd at least fill their staff with some normal people who don't give a shit about this sort of nonsense, instead of these constant scheming micro-manipulators focusing on such low-level deceit.

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38 minutes ago, Doro said:

It was 100% The Thick of It, but you'd think by now they'd at least fill their staff with some normal people who don't give a shit about this sort of nonsense, instead of these constant scheming micro-manipulators focusing on such low-level deceit.

What makes it so much worse is that the next time he has a reusable mug, people will just think he is only doing it for the photo, which he will be.  I doubt the press would care if he had just used the disposable one.  This could be his bacon sandwich moment 

5bbf73de1f0000a1022594b9.jpeg?cache=dgGy

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