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Doro

Brexit

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1 hour ago, Thrabath said:

Well, they fear it's the start of the reunification of Ireland - which I do understand because there will be some sort of difference between NI and the rest of the UK; And yeah, they have that decision, but as I understand it, Sinn Fein must also agree or something like that; Though I've seen a lot of different versions, so not totally sure what the current idea is. There is a huge chance that this solution will prove to be eternal in practice, a.k.a. the backstop just renamed.

 

And it could also just be a way to get more UK-money to NI ;)

As far as I know, it just takes a simple majority to decide to put a hard border in place. Then again, with its current incarnation, getting a simple majority in Stormont seems to be impossible. Effectively, the "new" deal just puts the ball in Northern Ireland's court to decide on the border issue eventually, while the rest of the UK leaves without further delay. Since Northern Ireland were the major obstacle, I think it's pretty reasonable to give them the decision in this without hanging the rest of the UK in the balance.

You're probably right on the money front.

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So now Gove and Raab are giving assurances that if we have no trade deal done by the end of 2020 we will leave with no deal.

 

 

So even voting for this deal means there is a chance of no deal and I suspect that many Tories would be happy for this to happen and may even attempt tp make this happen by ensuring that no trade deal is reach, which would not be hard given that it took 7 years for the EU to get a deal with the US

Also Oliver Letwin has an amendment that will ensure that we get an extension even if the deal passes tomorrow.  This will ensure that there is sufficient time to pass the necessary legislation to leave and again ensure that the clock is not run down forcing a no deal Brexit

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The Letwin amendment has passed, so Johnson must but law sent a letter by 11 pm tonight.  He is saying he will not negotiate an extension and the BBC is reporting that an unnamed source in the Downing Street says the PM will not ask for an extension.

Surely if by 11 pm tonight he has not sent the letter he will have to be prosecuted for breaking the law.  In that case he would surely have to resign as PM

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Yup, traitor Letwin has succeeded in fucking the country over. Here's hoping the EU reject the extension request. The irony that our democracy now rests on the decision of the very organisation we want to leave, because our own MPs have chosen to once again put the UK through months of uncertainty for no reason at all. Hang the lot of them.

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11 minutes ago, Doro said:

Yup, traitor Letwin has succeeded in fucking the country over. Here's hoping the EU reject the extension request. The irony that our democracy now rests on the decision of the very organisation we want to leave, because our own MPs have chosen to once again put the UK through months of uncertainty for no reason at all. Hang the lot of them.

MPs wanting to actually scuritinise the deal is not a bad thing in any way.  Time must be given to see what MPs are being asked to vote for.  Letwin is actually pro Brexit.  He just wants to have a deal.  We were told Brexit was about Parliament taking back control, well Parliament has spoken, now Johnson must comply with the law or we may as well shut down Parliament  

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Just now, cossieuk said:

MPs wanting to actually scuritinise the deal is not a bad thing in any way.  Time must be given to see what MPs are being asked to vote for.  Letwin is actually pro Brexit.  He just wants to have a deal.  We were told Brexit was about Parliament taking back control, well Parliament has spoken, now Johnson must comply with the law or we may as well shut down Parliament  

They don't want to scrutinise the deal, that's a bollocks excuse they use. They just don't want any Brexit to happen in any form. If Letwin actually did want out of the EU, he wouldn't have just stabbed Bojo in the back for the second time to block leaving. "Et tu, Letwin" doesn't really cover his betrayal, no matter how he wants to try to dress it up.

I say shut down Parliament (for a third time in as many months). There's no taking back control while the people making up the majority are pro-EU shills looking to obstruct the referendum result. Bring on a general election so the traitors can get thrown out.

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10 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

and the soap continues...

It's just taking the piss. "We'll approve the deal... but not right now... we need to do our hair first..." Excuse after excuse as to why they can't take a deal, while saying they equally think a no deal should be blocked. The traitors just want Brexit overturned, nothing more. I read through the "new" deal and it's mostly the same shit, just a few better points here and there (still not what I'd take as I'd prefer the no deal option anyway), and yet these pricks are so stupid they need 3 months to figure it out (on top of the months they already had looking at May's version). It's just dragging out the time to try to get people annoyed enough to just say "fuck it, let's not leave, it's too much bother", when all the bother has been because of Remainer MPs holding shit up. Fingers crossed it bites them when they eventually get the courage to back a GE.

Come on, EU. Do one useful thing and decline the extension request. Get these fuckers to panic and drop the stupid games.

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If it is mostly the same as before, why has the government not done an impact assessment.  There are on 60000 impact assessments on the governments website but none for this deal as there has not been time to do one yet.  On the BBC earlier they mentioned a government adviser saying that a bill like this would require 4 weeks for proper scrutiny.

Also lets not get started with the number of amendments that will be put forward for this bill, and depending on what passes Boris will need to go back to the EU and ask then to renegotiate the deal which could make it harder to get Parliament to pass the withdrawal bill

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8 hours ago, cossieuk said:

If it is mostly the same as before, why has the government not done an impact assessment.

They did. It happened in 2018. It still covers it.

8 hours ago, cossieuk said:

Also lets not get started with the number of amendments that will be put forward for this bill, and depending on what passes Boris will need to go back to the EU and ask then to renegotiate the deal which could make it harder to get Parliament to pass the withdrawal bill

Yep, there'll be more traitors trying to undermine Brexit, but that's been happening since the referendum results were announced.

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28 minutes ago, Doro said:

They did. It happened in 2018. It still covers it.

Yep, there'll be more traitors trying to undermine Brexit, but that's been happening since the referendum results were announced.

why do they say then that they won't do one instead of we have one?

And calling people traitors on a referendum that is by law advising and not binding, where options aren't binary, but because multiple options won't work in a referendum they are put into a binary option, where only 73% voted, with a 52/48, thus almost split result, and those affected most (younger people) had the lowest turnout (yeah, their own fault) and both sides, but leave more than remained, lied about the effects, is just stupid.

I still think they should respect the referendum result, even though I'm convinced it isn't a good decision for the UK, but not respecting it gives also a shitload of problems and distrust. And I don't see the problem in delaying it a little more so the deal can go through the lawmaking-process in a normal way instead of a rush. It is one of the most important laws in recent UK history after all. And if this won't pass it will probably a hard brexit after all beginning next year.

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32 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

why do they say then that they won't do one instead of we have one?

From Financial Times, but it keeps coming up with a bullshit subscription page when I try to link it. Article title "Sajid Javid rebuffs calls for Brexit economic impact assessment".

1582739099_2019-10-2308_59_31-Greenshot.png.4711a7698d45bfe8cdaa3b5c4213f264.png

32 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

And calling people traitors on a referendum that is by law advising and not binding, where options aren't binary, but because multiple options won't work in a referendum they are put into a binary option, where only 73% voted, with a 52/48, thus almost split result, and those affected most (younger people) had the lowest turnout (yeah, their own fault) and both sides, but leave more than remained, lied about the effects, is just stupid.

And acting like a democratic vote with a 73% turn out (meaning only 27% refused to vote, as is their choice), 52/48 difference being over 1 million people, and by constituency count it was something like 400 Leave to 250 Remain, should be brushed off as an "almost split result" is just retarded. They are traitors when they keep willingly trying to block the will of the people, and their fear of a general election shows they know they don't have public support for it.

32 minutes ago, Thrabath said:

I still think they should respect the referendum result, even though I'm convinced it isn't a good decision for the UK, but not respecting it gives also a shitload of problems and distrust. And I don't see the problem in delaying it a little more so the deal can go through the lawmaking-process in a normal way instead of a rush. It is one of the most important laws in recent UK history after all. And if this won't pass it will probably a hard brexit after all beginning next year.

The problem in delaying is that it's once again an attempt to find a way to overturn the result. It's not about finding a gradual way out of the EU, it's once again to cause problems and then when the clock runs out AGAIN to demand another extension until they find whatever method is available to ignore the referendum. They will never fully vote for a deal because they don't want Brexit to begin with.

1571478362636.png

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3 hours ago, Doro said:

They did. It happened in 2018. It still covers it.

Yep, there'll be more traitors trying to undermine Brexit, but that's been happening since the referendum results were announced.

But this deal is not the same, so the impact will not be the same. 

As for what the Government says about the deal, I dont trust them at all.  Hell the Brexit Secretory didnt even know that this deal will make NI firm submit declaration forms in order to sell goods to the rest of the UK, this puts them at a disadvantage when competing with other firms in the UK as they now have an added layer of red tape and expense.  It is his job to know what is in the deal and he failed at it on a straight forward question that he should have known about.

Also why has the protection of working rights been removed from the deal and moved to the political declaration, which is meaningless.  The Tories have long been against many workers rights and once we leave they will start stripping them back.

As for calling people with a different position on Brexit and what to do traitors is just stupid.  People can have different opinions and can even change their minds about what they think is the best way forward for the whole country not just for now but for the next few decades.

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6 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

But this deal is not the same, so the impact will not be the same.

Look through it, it really hasn't changed much beyond the backstop. Their impact assessments covered these possibilities already.

6 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Also why has the protection of working rights been removed from the deal and moved to the political declaration, which is meaningless.

Because it's tied up with the "level playing field" concept, which (similar to a customs union) means you have to agree to follow the same terms as another country. Removing it means keeping a competitive edge available.

6 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

As for calling people with a different position on Brexit and what to do traitors is just stupid.

I haven't called people with different positions traitors. I'm calling the MPs blocking the will of the people traitors, because that's what they are.

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16 minutes ago, Doro said:

Look through it, it really hasn't changed much beyond the backstop. Their impact assessments covered these possibilities already.

NI trading with the rest of the UK is 5 times that of it trade with ROI but there is now a boarder in the Irish Sea that only affects companies on one side, that has a massive affect on the NI economy.  When the deal can unite both the Unionist and the Nationalist in NI in saying it is bad then something is wrong.  The DUP want to leave the EU but not on a deal that hurts NI.

20 minutes ago, Doro said:

Because it's tied up with the "level playing field" concept, which (similar to a customs union) means you have to agree to follow the same terms as another country. Removing it means keeping a competitive edge available.

Removing it just allows the Tories to scrap worker rights.  

25 minutes ago, Doro said:

I haven't called people with different positions traitors. I'm calling the MPs blocking the will of the people traitors, because that's what they are.

How are they traitor, they have a different opinion on the future of the country.  The referendum was advisory, Parliament is not bound by the result.  Well both parties had it in the manifesto o respect the result, manifesto pledges are worth jack shit, all parties break them and people dont care.  As for the will of the people that can and does change often, that is why we have elections every 5 years or so so people can express their will.   Now we know what the deal to leave is, as opposed to the thousands of promises made before the referendum, in which we were told by all the main players in the leave campaign that we would get a deal and that no deal would not happen, lets see if it is what the people want,.   Surely that is a reasonable thing to do. 

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15 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

NI trading with the rest of the UK is 5 times that of it trade with ROI but there is now a boarder in the Irish Sea that only affects companies on one side, that has a massive affect on the NI economy.  When the deal can unite both the Unionist and the Nationalist in NI in saying it is bad then something is wrong.  The DUP want to leave the EU but not on a deal that hurts NI.

There shouldn't be any effect at all. It's an exit declaration, which is just submitting a form that goes with what's being sent over (both ways, too). That's it.

Quote

Removing it just allows the Tories to scrap worker rights.  

If Tories wanted to scrap workers rights, we wouldn't currently have better rights than the EU's current minimum already. It's literally about avoiding being tied to any potential EU changes in the future.

Quote

How are they traitor, they have a different opinion on the future of the country.

As I said, they're a traitor for preventing the will of the people. Until a general election happens, the will of the people is to Leave.

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14 minutes ago, Doro said:

As I said, they're a traitor for preventing the will of the people. Until a general election happens, the will of the people is to Leave.

A general elections should not and must not be all about Brexit.  If if only about the will of the people on Brexit then have a referendum.  A general election should be about all issues that affect the country

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5 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

A general elections should not and must not be all about Brexit.  If if only about the will of the people on Brexit then have a referendum.  A general election should be about all issues that affect the country

It should, and had we left back in March the next election would've been more broad. However, this is now about whether or not votes matter, and the next general election will be entirely about that. Another referendum would just undermine it even further.

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Another reason to not trust Boris, he has just said in PMQs that there will be no checks between the NI and GB which is the opposite of what the Brexit secretory confirmed yesterday and the opposite of what is actually stated in the deal he has agreed.  If he is going to lie about something that was confirm yesterday by his own cabinet why should anyone believe anything he says about Brexit

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20 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

Another reason to not trust Boris, he has just said in PMQs that there will be no checks between the NI and GB which is the opposite of what the Brexit secretory confirmed yesterday and the opposite of what is actually stated in the deal he has agreed.  If he is going to lie about something that was confirm yesterday by his own cabinet why should anyone believe anything he says about Brexit

No, he's right, there won't be any checks. The exit declaration isn't a check, it's a form. You've got to pay attention to wording on this sort of shit, it's very particular.

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3 minutes ago, Doro said:

No, he's right, there won't be any checks. The exit declaration isn't a check, it's a form. You've got to pay attention to wording on this sort of shit, it's very particular.

So there will be no checks done on these companies to ensure that they are filling in these forms.  Of course there are checks

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4 minutes ago, cossieuk said:

So there will be no checks done on these companies to ensure that they are filling in these forms.  Of course there are checks

Checks refers to stopping cargo at the border for an inspection. This will be no different to shit like how insurance companies must now include IPIDs with any documentation they send to customers (it's that page with the blue header you probably got with car insurance, for example). It's shitty bureaucracy, but it isn't like a border/customs check.

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Welp, the EU failed to stop an extension, so it looks like the traitors get a maximum of 3 more months to mess with things. It could be over sooner if a deal gets voted through parliament, but low chance of that.

However, the EU did do one thing:

"The draft text of an agreement for the 27 EU ambassadors - seen by the BBC - also included a commitment that the Withdrawal Agreement on the UK's exit from the EU cannot be renegotiated in future."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50205603

So this could finally be the last time the traitors can delay the inevitable, and the actual negotiations can finally start early next year. That is, providing they don't find some other method of betraying the referendum result.

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Dont count on this being the last extension.  The EU does not want a no deal Brexit but if that is to happen they will want to make sure that it the UKs choice and not because they would give an extension.  If the UK leaves with no deal because of the EU not giving an extension then the EU will get the blame for everything bad that happens after that point and they dont want that

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1 hour ago, cossieuk said:

Dont count on this being the last extension.  The EU does not want a no deal Brexit but if that is to happen they will want to make sure that it the UKs choice and not because they would give an extension.  If the UK leaves with no deal because of the EU not giving an extension then the EU will get the blame for everything bad that happens after that point and they dont want that

The EU does not want a Brexit. Britain doesn't want a Brexit (unless you count the gullible idiots who fell for Boris' lies).

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