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US Elections 2020

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3 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Yeah, I'll grant that was better. Off the top of my head I'd say Trumbo First Blood would probably be my favourite. Generally the left just doesn't know how to handle them: their feigned moral outrage just adds to the humour. 

I've not seen that one yet, but it's now going to be the first thing I do when I get back in.

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24 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Yeah, I'll grant that was better. Off the top of my head I'd say Trumbo First Blood would probably be my favourite. Generally the left just doesn't know how to handle them: their feigned moral outrage just adds to the humour. 

I admit they are designed to troll the left and drum up his base.  There is something to be said about the dignity of the office of the President, however...but I fear those days are long gone.  It doesn't help Trump doesn't have an ounce of class or humility.

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2 hours ago, Doro said:

I've not seen that one yet, but it's now going to be the first thing I do when I get back in.

Okay, yeah, that one was alright as well. Still love the reaction faces in the Kingsman one though.

 

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7 hours ago, Doro said:

No, I don't. I'm not saying Trump wasn't looking for dirt on Biden. You're claiming that there's been a policy of foreign powers digging up dirt on political rivals in exchange for already approved funds. You claim only an idiot wouldn't believe that. You have to prove that, or you're talking out of your arse. Again.

No, that's not what I'm saying (or at least, not what I'm trying to say).

The point with the Ukraine thing is that it IS NOT about digging up dirt on Biden, despite how the media (and Democrats) are characterizing it.  That's why motive is so crucial here.  From what I have seen (especially going by the timeline), Trump was looking into Biden LONG before Biden threw his name in the hat for President.  Biden being a candidate and Biden being under investigation is purely coincidental, and it has not been proven that Trump is looking into Ukraine to investigate Biden for political dirt.  What makes this really muddy (and why both sides claim they're right) is that Biden strong armed Ukrainian officials to get his son on Burisma's board, which gives sufficient probable cause to investigate Biden for corrupt activities while he was VP.  That's why the Republicans are fighting so hard on this as, from their perspective, Trump is just doing his job while the Democrats are trying to protect their own.

2 hours ago, Papi said:

I admit they are designed to troll the left and drum up his base.  There is something to be said about the dignity of the office of the President, however...but I fear those days are long gone.  It doesn't help Trump doesn't have an ounce of class or humility.

They ended when Monica got Resolutely nailed in the Oval Office.

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4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

No, that's not what I'm saying (or at least, not what I'm trying to say).

It was, though. Here's a direct screenshot of you saying that.

295820863_2019-12-1216_12_10-Greenshot.png.89c8a290029f84b621e4d74a45653b03.png

If you've changed your mind on that, that's fine, just let me know.

4 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

The point with the Ukraine thing is that it IS NOT about digging up dirt on Biden, despite how the media (and Democrats) are characterizing it.  That's why motive is so crucial here.  From what I have seen (especially going by the timeline), Trump was looking into Biden LONG before Biden threw his name in the hat for President.  Biden being a candidate and Biden being under investigation is purely coincidental, and it has not been proven that Trump is looking into Ukraine to investigate Biden for political dirt.  What makes this really muddy (and why both sides claim they're right) is that Biden strong armed Ukrainian officials to get his son on Burisma's board, which gives sufficient probable cause to investigate Biden for corrupt activities while he was VP.  That's why the Republicans are fighting so hard on this as, from their perspective, Trump is just doing his job while the Democrats are trying to protect their own.

You often bring up what Biden did, but it really doesn't matter in this context. It's the whole two wrongs don't make a right thing. Biden could've been part of the Epstein party plane crew for all it matters, Trump still fucked up by putting bribery into the mix. He shouldn't have withheld any agreed funds to get the investigation going.

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37 minutes ago, Doro said:

295820863_2019-12-1216_12_10-Greenshot.png.89c8a290029f84b621e4d74a45653b03.png

If you've changed your mind on that, that's fine, just let me know.

Well, if you believe the media/Democrat narrative on the Trump/Ukraine stuff, you're an intellectually lazy idiot that's too stupid to go do the homework and figure out what actually happened, as what happened and the narrative being presented are two vastly different things.

35 minutes ago, Doro said:

You often bring up what Biden did, but it really doesn't matter in this context. It's the whole two wrongs don't make a right thing.

Actually it does.  I highly doubt Trump would be looking at Ukraine if Biden hadn't done what he did.

If we approach it as a typical foreign policy...

37 minutes ago, Doro said:

He shouldn't have withheld any agreed funds to get the investigation going.

Please explain how the entire foreign aid concept isn't bribery and coercion.

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Just now, Almagnus1 said:

I highly doubt Trump would be looking at Ukraine if Biden hadn't done what he did.

 

That goes against the whole Republican argument that Trump was only interested in the "investigations" because of his concern regarding "overall corruption".  You're basically proving the Democrats right.  /golfclap

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---

What a lot of the other posters here aren't getting is that for Trump to actually be removed from office, they need all the Democrats in the Senate (45) and 22 other senators to vote to remove Trump.

If the Democrats cannot convince the Republicans that Trump did something worthy of impeachment, the entire impeachment process will be nothing more than a futile waste of time.

Just now, Papi said:

That goes against the whole Republican argument that Trump was only interested in the "investigations" because of his concern regarding "overall corruption".  You're basically proving the Democrats right.  /golfclap

So you're saying Biden coercing Ukraine by withholding foreign aid so that Hunter Biden could be hired onto Burisma isn't an abuse of power?

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9 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So you're saying Biden coercing Ukraine by withholding foreign aid so that Hunter Biden could be hired onto Burisma isn't an abuse of power?

And again, you have your facts screwed up.  You might want to read up on your timelines. 

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49 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Well, if you believe the media/Democrat narrative on the Trump/Ukraine stuff, you're an intellectually lazy idiot that's too stupid to go do the homework and figure out what actually happened, as what happened and the narrative being presented are two vastly different things.

That's moving the goalposts. You didn't say that, you said (again):

2019-12-12 16_12_10-Greenshot.png

Again, if you're changing your mind over that and don't actually have proof, feel free to just say. There's no need to dance around it.

49 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Actually it does.  I highly doubt Trump would be looking at Ukraine if Biden hadn't done what he did.

If we approach it as a typical foreign policy...

"I highly doubt Trump would be looking at Ukraine if Biden hadn't done what he did."

I've read that a few times over now to try to work out why you think that supports you. Trump was only looking at Ukraine because he wanted dirt on Biden. Yeah, that's the point. But, again, Trump doesn't get a free pass just because Biden probably did some shady dealings with a Ukrainian company for nepotist purposes.

49 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Please explain how the entire foreign aid concept isn't bribery and coercion.

It's like the difference between giving a homeless person money, and telling a homeless man they'll get money that's already been collected for them as long as they do something a dodgy in return.

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I'm not buying this fabricated time line scheme.

If Biden was doing something so wrong, then why did Trump and his DoJ wait until Biden became a political opponent for this election cycle? It's starting to sound like by this fucked up rational that Trump doesn't care about other crimes until those alleged criminals get in his way.

If what Biden did was a crime then why wasn't he charged before he decided to run for President?

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So if the Democrats were so right on the money about Trump, why are there defections?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/house-democrats-brace-for-some-defections-among-moderates-on-impeachment-of-trump/ar-AAK2oCK

This only makes the impeachment look like a politically driven thing, and not what an impeachment should be about.

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5 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

This only makes the impeachment look like a politically driven thing, and not what an impeachment should be about.

Sigh...27 pages in and you still don't understand  "what impeachment should be about".  Alexander Hamilton, via the Federalists Papers: "The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself"

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20 hours ago, Doro said:

That's moving the goalposts. You didn't say that, you said (again):

2019-12-12 16_12_10-Greenshot.png

Again, if you're changing your mind over that and don't actually have proof, feel free to just say. There's no need to dance around it.

"I highly doubt Trump would be looking at Ukraine if Biden hadn't done what he did."

I've read that a few times over now to try to work out why you think that supports you. Trump was only looking at Ukraine because he wanted dirt on Biden. Yeah, that's the point. But, again, Trump doesn't get a free pass just because Biden probably did some shady dealings with a Ukrainian company for nepotist purposes.

It's like the difference between giving a homeless person money, and telling a homeless man they'll get money that's already been collected for them as long as they do something a dodgy in return.

Go take a look at the timeline at https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-impeachment-timeline/ 

When you see stuff like:

Quote

May 13, 2014

KEY EVENT Hunter Biden, a son of then-U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, joins the board of the Ukrainian energy company Burisma Holdings. It is owned by oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky, one of several subjects of the Ukrainian corruption probe.

 

Quote

December 8, 2015

KEY EVENT In Kyiv, Biden tells Ukrainian leaders to fire Shokin or lose more than $1 billion in loan guarantees. Biden joins many Western leaders in urging Shokin’s ouster.

 

Quote

January 11, 2017

KEY EVENT Politico reports Ukrainian officials "helped Clinton's allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers" during the campaign. It said they were also trying to make amends after questioning Trump's fitness for office and disseminating the Manafort documents. The article notes, however, that there is no indication of an effort originating within the leadership of the Ukrainian government itself.

 

Quote

June 8, 2017

Giuliani, who would later become Trump's personal lawyer, meets with Poroshenko and Lutsenko, according to a later-released House investigation.

 

Quote

January 23, 2018

KEY EVENT At an event hosted by the Council on Foreign Relations, Biden describes his pressure campaign in Ukraine. "I said, you’re not getting the billion. I'm going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: 'I'm leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you're not getting the money,' " Biden says. "Well, son of a b----. He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."

 

Quote

April 1, 2019

After speaking with Lutsenko, Solomon reports that a probe into Joe Biden's push to fire Lutsenko's predecessor is underway. Lutsenko tells Solomon that he wants to present his evidence to Attorney General William P. Barr.

 

Quote

April 25, 2019

Joe Biden announces his presidential campaign.

 

I mean, there it is as clear as day (in the Washington Post no less) events that show Trump was already looking into Ukraine before Biden was running for President.

Just now, Papi said:

Sigh...27 pages in and you still don't understand  "what impeachment should be about".  Alexander Hamilton, via the Federalists Papers: "The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated political, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself"

So in other words we should impeach most of the House of Representatives because they have violated the public trust and injured society itself?

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38 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So if the Democrats were so right on the money about Trump, why are there defections?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/house-democrats-brace-for-some-defections-among-moderates-on-impeachment-of-trump/ar-AAK2oCK

This only makes the impeachment look like a politically driven thing, and not what an impeachment should be about.

Stop being obtuse. It was fully expected some politicians would choose their own survival verses voting objectively based on facts. These people place their conviction on the wrong foundation. What is best for our country and what is best for them. In almost every case the so-called defector won a seat in a red district and fears losing the seat if they vote with their party and or on facts.

"House Democratic leaders are bracing for some defections among a group of moderate Democrats in swing districts who are concerned a vote to impeach President Trump could cost them their seats in November."

I wonder if you just tagged a headline or read the article?

If given the choice and position, I'd have no problem sacrificing my job rather than be driven by fear and greed. I highly doubt you could make such a claim.

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1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

Go take a look at the timeline at https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-impeachment-timeline/ 

When you see stuff like:

I mean, there it is as clear as day (in the Washington Post no less) events that show Trump was already looking into Ukraine before Biden was running for President.

A lot of irrelevant things. You're trying to change the subject from your claim that there's been foreign policies involving bribing foreign powers with pre-approved aid (which you've still yet to provide any examples of, despite claiming it would be stupid to not believe you), to this bizarre excuse that because Trump was supposedly looking for dirt before Biden announced he was running, that suddenly makes his behaviour acceptable.

No, what Trump did isn't considered standard foreign policy.

No, Trump's timing on trying to find skeletons in Biden's closet doesn't change what he did.

No, what Biden probably did isn't an excuse for Trump to do what he did.

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People seem to think that Democrats have some crazy loyalty to Biden, we don't.  One difference between Republicans and Democrats was on full display during the Franken ouster.  Democrats, DEMOCRATS, demanded he resign.  If Franken had been a Republican they would have come up with numerous reasons why it was really perfectly ok.  Oddly enough, I don't think what Franken did warranted the outrage it received, but I'm old and don't have the energy to get pissed about stupid jokes.

If Biden broke a law then he should be punished.  However, that doesn't excuse Trump's actions.  I didn't get away with that excuse when I was a kid.  Why should the POTUS?

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8 hours ago, Doro said:

A lot of irrelevant things. You're trying to change the subject from your claim that there's been foreign policies involving bribing foreign powers with pre-approved aid (which you've still yet to provide any examples of, despite claiming it would be stupid to not believe you), to this bizarre excuse that because Trump was supposedly looking for dirt before Biden announced he was running, that suddenly makes his behaviour acceptable.

So you're saying that the US giving foreign powers money (which is what our foreign aid actually is) on preconditions is what exactly?

It's like you're arguing that walking isn't walking here....

8 hours ago, Doro said:

No, what Trump did isn't considered standard foreign policy.

Well yeah, not many presidents have had to deal with an international corruption investigation....

8 hours ago, Doro said:

No, Trump's timing on trying to find skeletons in Biden's closet doesn't change what he did.

Which was investigate a corrupt politician....

8 hours ago, Doro said:

No, what Biden probably did isn't an excuse for Trump to do what he did.

Are you seriously saying that crime isn't cause for the police to investigate?

9 hours ago, Splay said:

Stop being obtuse. It was fully expected some politicians would choose their own survival verses voting objectively based on facts.

And in this case most of the Democrats (especially those from California and New York) did neither....

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

People seem to think that Democrats have some crazy loyalty to Biden, we don't.

Which is why some Democrats are backing away from the impeachment fiasco because they see it blowing up in their faces.

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

One difference between Republicans and Democrats was on full display during the Franken ouster.  Democrats, DEMOCRATS, demanded he resign.

So did the Republicans, but it's expected you ignore the facts there....

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

If Franken had been a Republican they would have come up with numerous reasons why it was really perfectly ok.

IF a Republican had actually done what Franken had did, the same thing would have happened like what happened to that Republican dude in Alabama I think it was.  I mean, where are all the Democrats demanding that Bill Clinton be put on trial for all the sexual assault and sexual harassment that rapist has committed?

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

If Biden broke a law then he should be punished.

So you're saying he should be investigated, right?

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

However, that doesn't excuse Trump's actions.

Which is in direct conflict to your prior statement because Trump is investigating Biden for abuse of power.

6 hours ago, Amenhir said:

I didn't get away with that excuse when I was a kid.  Why should the POTUS?

Because Trump (in this case) is doing his job while the Democrats are running a desperate political gambit (that is failing) because the Democrats realize just how screwed they are come 2020.

By the way, I want to thank you Democrats for helping Trump get reelected in 2020, because that's EXACTLY what this impeachment fiasco is doing.  So please, give him all the coverage and keep covering his Tweets, keep giving him free press as Trump is playing the press like a fiddle - exactly like how he did in 2016.  Please keep the Orange man in your headspace, and please keep acting like unhinged lunatics, because you're the best double agents the Republican party has ever had - exactly like AOC ?

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43 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

By the way, I want to thank you Democrats for helping Trump get reelected in 2020, because that's EXACTLY what this impeachment fiasco is doing.  So please, give him all the coverage and keep covering his Tweets, keep giving him free press as Trump is playing the press like a fiddle - exactly like how he did in 2016.  Please keep the Orange man in your headspace, and please keep acting like unhinged lunatics, because you're the best double agents the Republican party has ever had - exactly like AOC ?

Ya I'm not a Democrat.

Eleven months is a long time. Much more will come to light regardless of the Impeachment out come. Trump is losing every court appeal he initiates. By the time the election happens Trump will be revealed in his full glory. Also once Mcconnell saves his ass Trump will empower himself to full stoopid level. His rage revenge will bury him if he acts on it. But let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet.

Then there is his persona. Many Republicans in office can't stand the guy. He has no concept of tact or self control. If you choose to praise a nutcase then go worship him all you want.

 

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8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

So you're saying that the US giving foreign powers money (which is what our foreign aid actually is) on preconditions is what exactly?

Public foreign policy is a different kettle of fish to withholding said funds to do shady backdoor deals with foreign powers for dirt on domestic politicians. This has already been explained to you with the whole homeless charity example.

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Well yeah, not many presidents have had to deal with an international corruption investigation....

Because it isn't just foreign policy, like you're acting.

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which was investigate a corrupt politician....

Through corrupt means.

8 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Are you seriously saying that crime isn't cause for the police to investigate?

I'm seriously saying that even police aren't allowed to commit crimes in the process of investigating one.

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I thought McConnell had more experience and sense to not openly say what everyone knows. Apparently not.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/some-democrats-asks-mcconnell-to-recuse-himself-from-possible-senate-impeachment-trial/ar-AAK7XwJ?li=BBnb7Kz

I read McConnell's words the day he made them and was wondering how long it would take others who are supposed professionals and scholars in law and history to grasp those implications.

"We'll be working through this process, hopefully in a fairly short period of time in total coordination with the White House counsel's office and the people who are representing the president as well as the Senate,"

 

Ofc every republican voter or politician will say. "Ya duh"

But... Here is the kicker. The US Constitution in its provisions define how the Senate's part in any Impeachment is to be conducted. McConnell has made an error here in his understanding.

The crux of the error is, as a Senator leading the current majority in the Senate, McConnell has to "act" with impartiality. The definition of the word "act" could be contestable and subject to opinion, but in the US Constitution to be consistent with this word in other parts of the US Constitution it is defined by its repeated use.

This dilemma McConnell has set in motion doesn't have any way to resolve within the structure of the US Constitution or in the balance of power our government has. This is a real problem because not even the courts can weigh in on this. At this time there are only two points to guide this.

1. McConnell does recuse himself of his own choice. Which means he cannot vote. Which means a proxy.

2. The Senate opens a motion for a vote requiring a simple majority to exclude McConnell from the Impeachment trial. Again means a proxy.

Being that Chief Justice Roberts will preside over the trial, he may have to intervene and take action, acting as the arbiter representing the US Constitution. This in itself will be unprecedented, but I find it hard for the Chief Justice of the highest court in the US to sit idle and be resigned as a figure piece.

What's fucked up about this is if it were a criminal trial. What McConnell has done equates to intentionally making the case a mistrial by introducing from maligned form of double jeopardy. In no court room could the prosecutor leading a criminal trial be behind closed doors aiding the defendant leading the judge and jury to find them innocent. Its all backwards because that is the client's defense attorneys role. In the Impeachment McConnell's role is now the prosecutor and the defense attorney by openly projecting the outcome of the Impeachment trial. There is no way McConnell can "act" impartial when he has already openly said he is helping the President. McConnell would have been far better off saying nothing and do his bro Trump a solid in an unspoken agreement.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Splay said:

snip

It's because our stupid system has enabled one asshole to have so much power.  It's quite extraordinary that one guy can stimy legislation by refusing to bring bills to the floor.  McConnell is untouchable unless he's voted out of office or democrats flip the Senate.  I have little faith in that because people are always voting against their best interests.

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On 12/14/2019 at 3:18 AM, Doro said:

Public foreign policy is a different kettle of fish to withholding said funds to do shady backdoor deals with foreign powers for dirt on domestic politicians. This has already been explained to you with the whole homeless charity example.

And in this case, the withholding of funds is actually a mischaracterization of what had happened.  I didn't think you were THAT gullible to believe that line of BS.

On 12/14/2019 at 3:18 AM, Doro said:

Because it isn't just foreign policy, like you're acting.

In this case, it is because Biden had screwed with Ukraine, and if you take a look into the Steel dossier (which the Democrats had made) it also came from Ukraine.  The Ukrainians have had enough on their side and this is basically a joint investigation... with the Democrats' asses on the line.  I mean, the Democrats are behaving exactly like a kid that got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

On 12/14/2019 at 3:18 AM, Doro said:

Through corrupt means.

It's not corrupt, it's just being characterized as such by the Democrats.

On 12/14/2019 at 3:18 AM, Doro said:

I'm seriously saying that even police aren't allowed to commit crimes in the process of investigating one.

And I'm saying if you look at the actual data, Trump hasn't committed a crime here, just done things in an unorthodox manner.  Just because things weren't done in the usual way doesn't make them illegal.

9 hours ago, Amenhir said:

It's because our stupid system has enabled one asshole to have so much power.

Kinda like an asshole on the House Intelligence committee....

9 hours ago, Amenhir said:

I have little faith in that because people are always voting against their best interests.

Or maybe they are and you don't have a clue what those best interests actually are?

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15 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And in this case, the withholding of funds is actually a mischaracterization of what had happened.  I didn't think you were THAT gullible to believe that line of BS.

Again, you're going to have to provide proof of your claims.

15 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

In this case, it is because Biden had screwed with Ukraine, and if you take a look into the Steel dossier (which the Democrats had made) it also came from Ukraine.  The Ukrainians have had enough on their side and this is basically a joint investigation... with the Democrats' asses on the line.  I mean, the Democrats are behaving exactly like a kid that got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Again, whatever Biden's done does not excuse what Trump has done.

15 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

It's not corrupt, it's just being characterized as such by the Democrats.

No, it is corrupt. I haven't even heard what the Democrats are saying, because honestly I don't give a shit. This is not some narrative only the Democrats are pushing, this is just fact.

15 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

And I'm saying if you look at the actual data, Trump hasn't committed a crime here, just done things in an unorthodox manner.  Just because things weren't done in the usual way doesn't make them illegal.

In this case I'd say otherwise, considering how far it's gone. He very blatantly delayed aid to Ukraine. He very blatantly asked for Ukraine to investigate Biden. Both of these were connected, and bribery was definitely what was going on.

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