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Codemasters Question

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In the future, will Codemasters be able to talk to us about what went wrong with Free to Play negotiating, the fall put and were they expecting to be running the game for a lot longer than they did or will they have a massive lifetime NDA?

PJ

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In the future, will Codemasters be able to talk to us about what went wrong with Free to Play negotiating, the fall put and were they expecting to be running the game for a lot longer than they did or will they have a massive lifetime NDA?

PJ

Unlikely to ever happen.

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with recent news of CM shutting down other studios to concentrate on driving games it makes me think that they were happy to get rid of their mmo involvement.

i also bet with CM no longer running any mmos their have been lay-offs in their CS department.

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Just because the individuals you lucky Europeans dealt with during LOTRO were classy doesn't mean that CM as a company is necessarily the same. The fights with Turbine could have been for very petty reasons and getting out having nothing to do with Turbine behavior one way or another.

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OK, so this is my opinion and does not represent any official viewpoint from CM or any other of their staff.

I very much doubt that CM will go public with the history and background to the F2P release, and that's nothing to do with CM wanting to or not, it's just simple good business practice across all business sectors. I've certainly never worked in a business sector where that would have happened.

I will say that from my perspective CM were not "happy" to lose the LOTRO MMO at all and tried very, very hard to keep it. As they say though "money talks" and it talks in an American accent. (But apparently "it can't dance and it can't walk".. :').

Losing the service probably impacted me and my team more than any other within Codemasters and I am still unable to express my sadness and frustration at how that came about and the way that it was done. I still work at Codemasters and am very happy here. I'll leave you guys to join the dots between those two statements.

I am proud that I left the Lotro players a couple of parting gifts. The Hacked Account Restart Programme and Reimbursement policy were our design, testing and implementation from start to finish and I can say with near certainty that without my teams drive and imagination to implement those you wouldn't have those services in place today in the US. When we were being told it was impossible to do by certain parties my guys and girls found a way to make it work...

Once again I'll leave you to join the dots about how much we cared about our players to go to bat for them with Turbine to get those implemented.

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I think many are sad that Codemasters was removed from the picture. Even if I was a rather vocal critic of CM's performance and business, I was and am sad that they are no longer hosting the game.

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I think a lot of people that played under Codemasters are starting to see where CM wasn't the type of company they thought, and are starting to see CM in a better light. Unfortunately, CM's troubles with Turbine were kept in-house and not transmitted to the customers, and that type of discretion is honourable.

I'll tell you what I noticed about Codemasters, being a player who has played under Turbine the entire time.

- They loved to engage their customer base.

- They instituted account restoration long before Turbine could be bothered to.

- Even after losing LOTRO, they kept in touch with LOTRO players they once served.

- Their forum board was smooth, fluid and pleasing to the eye.

/salute

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Thanks for giving some dots to join up :)

No company is perfect but for the most part I was always happy with codemasters and got the impression that where delayed content was concerned it was usually in our best interests.

On a personal level I would rather deal with a smaller company than larger ones as smaller companies tend to have a more vested interest and treat their customers more like people than sources of potential revenue.

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OK, so this is my opinion and does not represent any official viewpoint from CM or any other of their staff.

I very much doubt that CM will go public with the history and background to the F2P release, and that's nothing to do with CM wanting to or not, it's just simple good business practice across all business sectors. I've certainly never worked in a business sector where that would have happened.

I will say that from my perspective CM were not "happy" to lose the LOTRO MMO at all and tried very, very hard to keep it. As they say though "money talks" and it talks in an American accent. (But apparently "it can't dance and it can't walk".. :').

Losing the service probably impacted me and my team more than any other within Codemasters and I am still unable to express my sadness and frustration at how that came about and the way that it was done. I still work at Codemasters and am very happy here. I'll leave you guys to join the dots between those two statements.

I am proud that I left the Lotro players a couple of parting gifts. The Hacked Account Restart Programme and Reimbursement policy were our design, testing and implementation from start to finish and I can say with near certainty that without my teams drive and imagination to implement those you wouldn't have those services in place today in the US. When we were being told it was impossible to do by certain parties my guys and girls found a way to make it work...

Once again I'll leave you to join the dots about how much we cared about our players to go to bat for them with Turbine to get those implemented.

I think right to the end Codies kept their dignity, even when Turbine were totally rude about them (when they critised the special GM events Codies did as a goodbye calling them Unauthorised) you gave Turbine a very large database of customers due to your excellent customer service and not banning any thing that isn't totally positive on the forums. Wouldn't it be ironic if all these cases against Turbine and their shoddy practices that ME enterprises handed the game to Codemasters ;-) I think you are best of out of it Codies. I know you wouldn't have liked to have been a front for the lies we have been told about the next expansion.

I hope and pray that anyone who lost their jb over the loss has now found work.

PJ

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On a personal level I would rather deal with a smaller company than larger ones as smaller companies tend to have a more vested interest and treat their customers more like people than sources of potential revenue.

which is funny when you consider CM has around 3 times the number of employees turbine has on average.

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which is funny when you consider CM has around 3 times the number of employees turbine has on average.

If that is so, then it is funny indeed :) Perhaps it is more down to the size of the ego's of those running the show then :)

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which is funny when you consider CM has around 3 times the number of employees turbine has on average.

The division the dealt with LOTRO was most likely smaller than Turbine, dont forget CM do a lot of other games as well.

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My take on the whole thing.

CM was removed because after the f2p switch, if people were pissed enough with Turbine, they could still play the game and avoid their BS. A small lag isn't really all that big except in PVMP. That's why they were severed, that's why that option was removed. Both as a PR issue, in that during the account hack problems CM was making Turbine look positively shoddy in terms of customer service (and it was looking like that would only get worse) and look like total liars because what they said couldn't be done, could in fact be done if you really wanted to do it (which by the way is true of almost any type of database manipulation, you just have to want to do it). And because they wanted to ensure that all people came to the mountain to talk to Muhammad. Control, control, control. Once people started cross posting from EU to NA, and people could compare notes, they had lost control of the playerbase. If people started transferring over (which I believe there were requests or discussions about just that possibility) Turbine still makes money, but they have no direct control anymore over the customer service. And nothing really prevented people from just dropping sub and creating new anyway.

Maybe we all hate the store, but when the management you have to talk to is at least more open or accessible or even just more responsive and accepting of critique, where do you want to hang your hat? And people were also just beginning to see that the consumer protection in EU had more teeth compared to the US and that in general it seemed like customers had more rights across the pond. That was definitely NOT wanted. I can imagine Turbine (or more to the point, Sap) was pulling hairs out about that lack of control. Plus, since Turbine marketing HAD to know about those protections, it stood to reason they wanted to get rid of people that not only knew of them, but would follow them. The better to enable the whole ROI thing. It's hard to pull that crap when the people you expect to put it out for you there are going to turn around and go' WTF do you think you are doing?!'; even if they might be able to just wash their hands and lay all the blame on TURBINE, I doubt that sort of thing is favored in EU courts.

That's the thing, we keep thinking they didn't KNOW about those laws, when, since they seem to know everything about contest law, suggests they know about ALL the laws that apply to them. And that folks, is what really shows what they are.

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I think is something far more simple. When Turbine was planning to launch the game they didnt have the funds to launch it in the EU, but they know that they needed to capitalise on the EU market so getting another company to take the risk with them made sense. Now this meant that Turbine had to share the money from sales and subs with CM but that was fine as it was still more than not releasing it in the EU.

Now they knew from the results of DDO going F2P that there is more money to be made and they didnt want to share it with anyone so they took control of the EU player base

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That's the thing, we keep thinking they didn't KNOW about those laws, when, since they seem to know everything about contest law, suggests they know about ALL the laws that apply to them. And that folks, is what really shows what they are.

I think Turbine are aware of their own countries laws, I can't believe consumer protection is not covered at least to some extent in marketing or business courses. Moreover the marketing tactics used have hardly been subtle in their approach - there must be at least one employee who has spoken up and said 'hold on a sec, we can't do this... consumer protection issues...'

It is certainly their business to know about the laws of the countries they do business in but I would perhaps be inclined to believe in oversight if they weren't being so unethical and not complying even with their local laws. After all if they show no regard for the laws of their own country and state then why would they care about laws that apply overseas?

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The division the dealt with LOTRO was most likely smaller than Turbine, dont forget CM do a lot of other games as well

Yep, CM Online ran Lotro pretty much as a seperate entity within CM. We had around 50 in the department and that included the whole GM team, a full complement of 24/7 Tech Operations and server support, DBA's and general IT PropellerHeads and a small dev team for the billing system.

@Jackalope: Nice theory, but I really believe the money talked, and (my theory, and it is only a theory) because WB felt they couldn't acknowledge any longer than necessary that they weren't publishing the game in Europe and were relying on a 3rd party to do it for them, not good for their "global" image.

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Oh, Turbine does know the laws, for certain, but now they have an army of WB lawyers in tow, to deal with any legal dissent. Even if they are blatant in their skirting the law, the legal fight against them is an uphill battle, as every precedent in judicial history will be drawn out and extrapolated to their breaking point. A humourous example from the movie Intolerable Cruelty:

Freddy Bender: If you have a proposal to make, let's hear it.

Miles Massey: Well, at this point, my client is still prepared to consider reconciliation.

Freddy Bender: My client's ruled that out.

Miles Massey: My client is prepared to entertain an amicable dissolution to the marriage without prejudice.

Freddy Bender: That's a fart in a stiff wind.

Miles Massey: My client proposes a 30-day cooling-off period.

Freddy Bender: My client feels sufficiently dispassionate.

Miles Massey: My client asks that you not initiate proceedings pending his setting certain affairs in order.

Miles Massey: All right, so much for the ice-breakers. What are you after, Freddy?

[takes a drink of water]

Freddy Bender: My client is prepared to settle for 50 percent of the marital assets.

[Miles spits out some water]

Miles Massey: Why only 50, Freddy? Why not a hundred? While we're dreaming, why not 150? Are you familiar with "Kershner"?

Freddy Bender: "Kershner" does not apply.

Miles Massey: Bring this to trial, we'll see if "Kershner" applies.

Rex: What's "Kershner"?

Miles Massey: Please, let me handle this.

Freddy Bender: "Kershner" was in Kentucky.

Miles Massey: "Kershner" was in Kentucky?

Freddy Bender: "Kershner" was in Kentucky.

Miles Massey: All right, Freddy, forget "Kershner". What's your bottom line?

Freddy Bender: Primary residence, 30 percent of remaining assets.

Miles Massey: What, are you nuts? Have you forgotten "Kershner"?

That's not to say that a legal option will not work against Turbine, but, if Turbine's practises remain unchallenged, the chance becomes zero.

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I can take them to small claims court tomorrow if somebody can point me to an applicable MA law that caused me monetary losses.

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...just to say hello

I would like to quote my personal favorite character in the films

(not the books :P) at this point

"Let this be the hour when we draw swords together." Théoden, King

... I had simply choosen this quote because of the fact that I really miss

the time when we draw our swords together and even if me and mostly the rest

of the team is already involved in new projects, our time serving for you

in middle earth will stay in our hearts forever!

... dont bother discussing about the how´s and who´s guys, keep the good in

mind and take whats given. I really personally belive its like my honorured

(ex)Boss said *waves, Hey Dude* ... In times of globalism like we have them

now, it was just a moneytalking question of prestige.

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The division the dealt with LOTRO was most likely smaller than Turbine, dont forget CM do a lot of other games as well.

well the person i was quoting was talking about companies not divisions, and my understanding is that CM has one Customer Service department for all its products.

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well the person i was quoting was talking about companies not divisions, and my understanding is that CM has one Customer Service department for all its products.

Fair point....Billing, acccount and tech support runs out of 1 department for the whole company. The GM team was dedicated to Lotro support only.

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I never had a disagreement with codies except maybe that Time CD was closed because of turbines coding screw-ups and I needed a rune of winged dominence. Have to say Codies GM's were 10 times better than the current GM's we have to deal with, trained monkeys could be GM's at turbine imo, all they ever do is cut and paste canned response's..tbh I think Turbines GM's are infact some type of Bot program. I remember the Codies GM's actually conversing with a player on a issue and not saying they always gave you the answer you wanted but at least you always felt like they would try if they could.

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After dealing with Turbine for the last few months, and watching the drama unfold on the forums I have but 3 words.

I miss Codies :(

The behaviour that's come across on Turbine's forums has, to me, suggested that CM were probably caught between a rock and a hard place for quite some time - no info from Turbine on things that were going to happen and customers demanding to know, then fallout when bombshells were dropped.

I very much appreciated the final events, and even more so when we were told that they were impossible... 7(8)7

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I miss CM aswell. And not for the smallest part because I have never, ever, been to a forum that has a worse smell to it. Full heads on flaming troll wars, nothing I have seen could've prepared me to a forum where moderators black list PAYING customers saying their mind.

And to think I once complained on the CM forums that we weren't being listened to. frusty.gif

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In the future, will Codemasters be able to talk to us about what went wrong with Free to Play negotiating, the fall put and were they expecting to be running the game for a lot longer than they did or will they have a massive lifetime NDA?

When LOTRO will have been permanently shut down everywhere for X number of years, then they *might* be able to ; but even then, I wouldn't bet on it !!!

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