Jump to content
LOTROCommunity
Sign in to follow this  
Dalthalion

Agdom's Latest LOTRO Review

Recommended Posts

It's on the busiest subforum. They can let people post all they want until they run out of rage and then it will quickly drop off the first page of that busiest subforum. The sheer amount of threads will make the problem go away reasonably quickly. While those threads stay visible to Google searches there aren't enough outside websites linking to these threads to make them appear special to Google's ranking.

Which overall is Turbine's strategy in my opinion. They allow just enough openness so that they don't have a strong external community form. And if they do they still have some options including deleting the threads after all.

Keep in mind bumping a thread for the purpose of bumping is a violation that leads to an infraction. They have a number of ways to control visibility of threads while still "allowing" people to expend their anger on their own forum.

Utterly disgusting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have to wonder what the purpose is then when someone posts a WE LOVE YOU TURBINE thread during such a crisis as this. Is it a balls of brass attempt to push threads off the first page? I think so. In fact, I think that's the total opposite of bumping. An attempt to force debate out of sight, and therefore out of mind. Should be a rule of the forum too : Creating new threads to no purpose is a violation of the forum TOS, and can be punished. If they really wanted to sing the praises of ROI, they could do that in the official thread about ROI. No need to make new threads at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but the problem is that they can't include all the items because the expansion isn't finished and those things aren't available to bundle. The dungeons are part of the expansion and people who pre-ordered will get them automatically. I was under the impression (not going to go hunting for a source) that when the dungeons are released we will see updated complete bundle deals then.

They can currently include from ROI;

- quest pack

- raid

- skirmish rank

as all the above are components of the paid expansion. They can also include from Moria;

- RK & Warden class

- Moria quest pack

- skirmish rank (if they have retrospectively added one to the moria expansion)

and anything else I have missed that is part of an actual expansion pack.

As I say, consistency is the key to putting expansion components into the 'expansion' section of the store and being 'above board' about it.

Is the ROI raid in the expansion section too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually no, I bought the Enedwaith QP before the In Their Absense instance cluster was released. The instances were added to the quest pack and I received them at no additional charge. It's not that Turbine can't (which is what their claiming,) it's that they won't.

But there is no standalone ITA cluster in the store. Which on the other side could mean you have to pay for the new cluster even if you bought the Dunland QP and Draigoch´.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why must we all be punished for the actions of a few?

Oh, I don't think we're being punished, Agamemnon; we're being "LOTROed." ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, since this may not last over there I thought I'd copy it here. I've received punishment in the past for less:

Which is what one would expect if the expansion isn't available. Placing the quest pack in the expansion section rather than the quest pack section is deceitful. Intentionally so, in my opinion. And, it only makes sense to deceive your customers this way if your only concern is to rake in as much cash as you can now and the heck with the future. I would suggest that Turbine execs may not be playing for the long-term. It seems probable that they are cashing in now and will just move on down the road when it's all over leaving the sacked wreckage of a wonderful game in their wake. And that is sad.

IMHO

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?427286-Gibbets-and-crows-Rise-of-Isengard-and-the-state-of-LotRO&p=5779684#post5779684

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But there is no standalone ITA cluster in the store. Which on the other side could mean you have to pay for the new cluster even if you bought the Dunland QP and Draigoch´.

There was no ITA cluster when I bought the Enedwaith QP. My point is they said couldn't offer a bundle because of things that aren't available yet, but Turbine have done exactly that since F2P launch, in the store. They could do things that aren't seen as gouging players wallets/TP supplies, but they chosen not to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was no ITA cluster when I bought the Enedwaith QP. My point is they said couldn't offer a bundle because of things that aren't available yet, but Turbine have done exactly that since F2P launch, in the store. They could do things that aren't seen as gouging players wallets/TP supplies, but they chosen not to.

There is a difference between adding new instances retroactively and having people paying for new content before it is available to be used. Turbine never said "Hey, we're going to have a bunch of new instances in the next update that you'll get for free if you buy the Enedwaith Quest Pack now!" I'm really not sure why people find this so hard to understand. My personal opinion is that most posters here just want to take offense at everything Turbine does.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe they are walking on eggshells in the office right now. Regardless of the reason they are leaving the topic open, it is sparking a conversation (and perhaps emphasizing a certain, unspoken buyer's remorse) and that is the important thing.

I don't think thet are walking on eggshells.

Things go the way Fernado paitz said would happen at PAX East so Turbine have so far nothing to worry about with their community.

He said that many will complain but just a vew will leave and so far he seem to know the LOTRO community pretty good.

It seems to me that for many LOTRO is a drug.

You can get in but you can never leave. (Hotel California, Eagles)

They leave the topic so far open because the Turbine defence club does do the dirty work for them yet again.

If Sap the dictator get tired of the thread or too many will complain the lock will surely come.

I like to add I like the writeup by Agdom.

Even better was to read that he indeed did what so many complainers so far "refuse" to do.

Pull the plug and leave that messy company called Turbine far behind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Paiz has severely underestimated the community and its response. Our enjoyment of certain aspects of the game are entirely disconnected from our expectations of doing business with Turbine. There is such a thing as striving against a flawed business model concurrent with continuing to log in to play the game. Ultimately, neither the game nor the players are the problem; Turbine is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a difference between adding new instances retroactively and having people paying for new content before it is available to be used.

From the perspective of the store, and speaking logistically - no there isn't.

Bottom line is this - there was a store item available for purchase that did not originally include certain pieces of additional content, because the additional content did not exist at the time the store item was created. When the new content was released, they "docked it" into the existing item and anyone who purchased that existing item, past, present and future, automatically had the additional content made available to them as well.

There is no reason why they can't do exactly the same thing to the "Isengard" store item and "dock" the ROI instance cluster to the existing item as soon as it becomes available. They are just choosing not to in order to charge people twice for one item and are lying about their ability to do so in order to placate the credulous.

In fact, the incredulous have come out and asked Turbine WHY they can't do it with the Isengard expansion when they could do so with Enedwaith. Surprise surprise, the response was the patented Turbine wall of silence. A clear indication that they know they're taking the piss and are just hoping if they ignore the questions they'll go away. Typical Turbine "Customer Service" and an attitude all too familiar to people who can see clearly and think straight.

They can bloody well do it. They've shown they can and they've done it before. They've got no excuse - they are just outright lying. Shamefacedly. It truly baffles me why people continue to defend the indefensible, especially when they are a member of the group that is getting shafted.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a difference between adding new instances retroactively and having people paying for new content before it is available to be used. Turbine never said "Hey, we're going to have a bunch of new instances in the next update that you'll get for free if you buy the Enedwaith Quest Pack now!" I'm really not sure why people find this so hard to understand. My personal opinion is that most posters here just want to take offense at everything Turbine does.

Technically, there is no diffence. The implementation is identical in both situtation. The difference is in when Turbine disclose information of content they are working on. The reason people have a problem is because Turbine stated they could not do this because it was technically not possible do to the way the store works. This statement was false and as I've said before, they've done this in the past and have chosen not to do this in the future. The problem I have is the dishonesty on Turbine's side. What they should have said is, "This is what we are putting in the store and the expansion bundle won't be available until update 5." Some people would still be upset but at least that would be an honest statement on Turbine's part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Paiz has severely underestimated the community and its response. Our enjoyment of certain aspects of the game are entirely disconnected from our expectations of doing business with Turbine. There is such a thing as striving against a flawed business model concurrent with continuing to log in to play the game. Ultimately, neither the game nor the players are the problem; Turbine is.

What Mr. Paiz did in his keynote speech is (claiming to be) observing that people don't quit even if they complain, and then concludes that is because his game is so awesome and people are sooo sheepish.

What happens in reality is that people have large investments in time, personal energy and now (thanks to his clan) one-time payments for real-world money so that they cannot easily go to a different game. It is a lock-in model, effectively.

Keep in mind none of these numbers are public so for all we know they do leak players contrary to what he claims. The only data we have (logins/minute) is showing not only a clear downward trend, it also showed that RoI failed to get a lot of people back into play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Paiz has severely underestimated the community and its response. Our enjoyment of certain aspects of the game are entirely disconnected from our expectations of doing business with Turbine. There is such a thing as striving against a flawed business model concurrent with continuing to log in to play the game. Ultimately, neither the game nor the players are the problem; Turbine is.

Both are the same.

Turbine creates the game so also all the flaws, Store Items, Advantage stuff in the store , the mindless grindfest what can be lessened by items the store, security breach, and so on.

If the majority keep playing and funding Turbine nothing will change.

It takes a bit more to swing Turbine around and that is just cancel subs and not login anymore. Tell them in the exit box why you leave. Hit them in their revenue and hit them on their server load.

Even for unhappy lifers and Premiums who not spent a penny to Turbine anymore because of the direction the game is going are still better off to not logon.

Then we will see a drop in server loads and more people gonna call it the day and new players who see ghost servers ain't gonna stay long.

I also like to see the faces of the fanbois in that regard, hihihi!

And then maybe Turbine gonna change course because they have to admit that the speech of Paitz was just crap and the community is not as dense as they thought they would be.

But at this moment the speech is in their favor and that is not a good sign at all from the overall community.

I have respect for the Aion community which kept ignored by NCSoft and finally left in droves.

In all MMO's I played I have seen one thing, the LOTRO community is the most dense and IMHO that is the main reason Turbine keep getting away with their stuff.

But by all means, keep playing, praying, hoping and begging, but it ain't gonna work.

A year have past by since FTP launched and it only has become worse so no indication at all whatsoever that it will change.

It will get worse, mark my words!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think thet are walking on eggshells.

Things go the way Fernado paitz said would happen at PAX East so Turbine have so far nothing to worry about with their community.

He said that many will complain but just a vew will leave and so far he seem to know the LOTRO community pretty good.

It seems to me that for many LOTRO is a drug.

You can get in but you can never leave. (Hotel California, Eagles)

They leave the topic so far open because the Turbine defence club does do the dirty work for them yet again.

If Sap the dictator get tired of the thread or too many will complain the lock will surely come.

I like to add I like the writeup by Agdom.

Even better was to read that he indeed did what so many complainers so far "refuse" to do.

Pull the plug and leave that messy company called Turbine far behind.

Hmmm.... Seems a company named NetFlix said a similar thing not too long ago when their stock was flying high and they could do no wrong. They even stated they knew their customer base and would only lose a few customers over the changes....

Fast forward five months and their stock is tanking because they have lost a far greater number of customers than they had expected....

Sound a little like Paiz's idiotic assessment of how much he thinks he knows his player base?

I left LOTRO after more than three years just before Update 3. I started GW to prepare for GW2 (and to have an MMO to do). I used same character name as in LOTRO (and my handle on the forums) and got noticed by a guild that had over 50 ex-LOTRO players that shared the same sentiment as me. And that was just on one old MMO. I wonder how many are in RIFT or other MMOs.

Turbine is losing players and all for one reason... the stuck up egotistical attitudes and their blatant cash grab business model that, in many countries, is in violation of consumer protection laws.

As a result, Turbine will not only lose LOTRO players... they will not gain players for any title they have. Their reputation is beginning to proceed them. You see, one problem with MMOs is you know EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER is active on the internet. In today's day and age, word of mouth among players is one hundred times more effective than any wrtie up in the ad based kissy ass trade rags (which the OP reviewer reference was thankfully not among that group).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm.... Seems a company named NetFlix said a similar thing not too long ago when their stock was flying high and they could do no wrong. They even stated they knew their customer base and would only lose a few customers over the changes....

Fast forward five months and their stock is tanking because they have lost a far greater number of customers than they had expected....

Sound a little like Paiz's idiotic assessment of how much he thinks he knows his player base?

I left LOTRO after more than three years just before Update 3. I started GW to prepare for GW2 (and to have an MMO to do). I used same character name as in LOTRO (and my handle on the forums) and got noticed by a guild that had over 50 ex-LOTRO players that shared the same sentiment as me. And that was just on one old MMO. I wonder how many are in RIFT or other MMOs.

Turbine is losing players and all for one reason... the stuck up egotistical attitudes and their blatant cash grab business model that, in many countries, is in violation of consumer protection laws.

As a result, Turbine will not only lose LOTRO players... they will not gain players for any title they have. Their reputation is beginning to proceed them. You see, one problem with MMOs is you know EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER is active on the internet. In today's day and age, word of mouth among players is one hundred times more effective than any wrtie up in the ad based kissy ass trade rags (which the OP reviewer reference was thankfully not among that group).

I hope you are right and will admit it directly if I am wrong. In a lot of things we are on the same page, I quited right after Update 2 and played since dec 2009.

We only have a different point of view about the community at this moment.

I just go by what I read on the original forums and what I read there is that a majority of the complainers keep playing, it has something to do with the lore, others are talking about their investment, others milk it out because they not spent any dime anymore so it is free, and others think it is not that bad yet.

Two of my RL friends who where looking for a "new" MMO asked me about LOTRO, I told them I quited months ago and the reasons why I quited and so they are not even try it.

They know me well enough that if I quit an MMO the reasons are not because i am just bored.

I was technically not bored at all yet with LOTRO.

But I agree that IF or WHEN the exodus start to get shape it can go pretty fast.

I have seen such an exodus happen in Aion and no Aion fanboi could stop it anymore and became the complainers who they so despiced themselves, because they DEMANDED server merges after the exodus. LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't get a complete picture from the forums because for the most part, people who leave the game don't stop by the forums to complain first. The people complaining on the official forums are mostly those that are upset and hoping things will change if they complain (the squeaky wheel gets the grease.) If someone has already made up their mind to leave their isn't much reason for the complain in the forums first because if Turbine actually listened to players it wouldn't affect those who've left and never looked back.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you are right and will admit it directly if I am wrong. In a lot of things we are on the same page, I quited right after Update 2 and played since dec 2009.

We only have a different point of view about the community at this moment.

I just go by what I read on the original forums and what I read there is that a majority of the complainers keep playing, it has something to do with the lore, others are talking about their investment, others milk it out because they not spent any dime anymore so it is free, and others think it is not that bad yet.

Two of my RL friends who where looking for a "new" MMO asked me about LOTRO, I told them I quited months ago and the reasons why I quited and so they are not even try it.

They know me well enough that if I quit an MMO the reasons are not because i am just bored.

I was technically not bored at all yet with LOTRO.

But I agree that IF or WHEN the exodus start to get shape it can go pretty fast.

I have seen such an exodus happen in Aion and no Aion fanboi could stop it anymore and became the complainers who they so despiced themselves, because they DEMANDED server merges after the exodus. LOL

I agree with you 100%. It is coming. There are some major titles coming down the pike for once that do have the possiblity of gaining player interest - SW:TOR, GW2, Archage (I think I said that one right) and Secret World. These are just a few. Point is, this is several titles coming out instead of one. Do I think any will be a WoW killer? No, not exactly. But the combination of new games coupled with Turbine's in the toilet attitude, will cause this exodus to happen in 2012 is my bet.

SW:TOR will pull players... so will GW2... so will Secret World etc. This was Turbine's chance to really step up their game and capture a player base like they did in the SoA days. Instead, all they have done is put players in a mode of anxiously awaiting another MMO so they can jump ship from LOTRO.

Turbine shouldn't confuse people still logging in as acceptance for their atrocious behavior. Instead, they should consider that players are MMO fans at heart and LOTRO is just providing that fix for just a little longer until anything every half better comes along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you like GW Wayshuba?

I prolly gonna take a deep look into that game.

If I understand correctly by playing GW now there are some benefits if GW2 launch?

Can you do the walking just as in LOTRO?

With two mouse buttons pushed in to walk?

I just cannot get used to WASD, so this is mandatory for me. LOL

"Turbine shouldn't confuse people still logging in as acceptance for their atrocious behavior. Instead, they should consider that players are MMO fans at heart and LOTRO is just providing that fix for just a little longer until anything every half better comes along."

Yes, this is a very good possibility what you wrote above and what I not even considered.

I think you are quite right and many of those who still play while they are not happy just wait for one of those games you mentioned to launch to abandon the LOTRO ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In GW you don't have to use any buttons to walk, you can point your mouse where you want to go, click it, and your toon will run there ;)

GW offers the Hall of Monuments system to earn points which translates into items and titles for GW2. Fluff for the most part, but fun nonethless. I've got to 29/50 with it... It does require a little grind but it's something to do when Lotro drives you up the wall!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that for many LOTRO is a drug.

You can get in but you can never leave. (Hotel California, Eagles)

I once thought I'd never leave Lotro. They're making it very easy now. I won't go so far as to cancel my LTA, but other games are getting more quota of the precioues few moments of free time I have.

I already installed GW to see if I get all the (useless but nice) trinkets for GW2. shiny.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't get a complete picture from the forums because for the most part, people who leave the game don't stop by the forums to complain first. The people complaining on the official forums are mostly those that are upset and hoping things will change if they complain (the squeaky wheel gets the grease.) If someone has already made up their mind to leave their isn't much reason for the complain in the forums first because if Turbine actually listened to players it wouldn't affect those who've left and never looked back.

I think this is certainly the case. What Mr Paiz is overlooking is that for the first three years Turbine generally built a lot of loyalty with its customers. Yes some still complained, there will always be some who complain (lotro isn't wow etc) but I think for the most part they gained many players who were not into game-hopping or who saw lotro as a long term mmo they were committed to.

People in this situation are not going to just walk away from their investment (both time and money) just because the game takes a wrong turn. They hope if they shout a little louder they would be heard and things will be corrected. Even if the wrong turn remains they may keep on complaining but there is enough 'good' in the game to make it worth sticking around.

I do think this year will be tough for Turbine and that the effects of Turbine's actions over the past year and continued dishonesty will start to show. An increasing number of people are losing confidence in Turbine's ability to 'correct' the things that are wrong and realising that the reason why is because such things are exactly what Turbine want to do. When players lose hope and realise that those who produce their favourite game is just trying to squeeze them for cash and will continue to find new ways to do so through deceitful trade practices until the day they leave then suddenly there seems little reason to say and the only hope that remains is to keep in touch with the friends made in the past few years.

We can't see the numbers but even if the number of players coming to the game is balancing out the numbers that are leaving it still seems to me that Turbine is steadily losing the part of its playerbase that are most willing to put their hand in their pocket and spend money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you like GW Wayshuba?

I prolly gonna take a deep look into that game.

There is currently a free trial available for Guild Wars

http://www.guildwars.com/freetrial/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is certainly the case. What Mr Paiz is overlooking is that for the first three years Turbine generally built a lot of loyalty with its customers. Yes some still complained, there will always be some who complain

He is also overlooking that there was a different atmosphere among even the complainers back then. Yes, some were heavy-handed and shouty, but with one or two exceptions I think that there was a lot of good faith in Turbine at that point. Runekeeper and Goat arguments aside I think there was a general understanding that Turbine genuinely were doing the best they could, made a few mistakes along the way but were given the benefit of the doubt due to respect for their fairly earnest efforts.

For the most part, the positives drastically outweighed the negatives, and so people felt comfortable. They felt reassured that Turbine were basically dependable once you got used to the odd chicane in the road.

The Paizes used that to reach the conclusion that the players were pushovers whose complaints meant nothing because they were never going to leave. They felt able to push things as far as they felt like, resting easy with the supposed reassurance that they were manipulating a captive market that wasn't going anywhere. That one decision stripped away what tolerance the players had for Turbine's errors and left a gaping hole filled with bad faith. They took away their customers' good faith in them, replacing it with bad, and expected them to continue acting in the same trusting, tolerant way.

The galling thing to me was the smug, high-handed arrogance with which The ManPaiz batted aside the notion of dissatisfied customers. That is the sign of a man with no interest in customer satisfaction, and it was then that I realised that the people now running the game were jerks of the highest order and were no longer worthy of the benefit of the doubt in anything they do. I think a lot of other people came to similar conclusions around that time, too.

And now we are actually seeing people make good on their 'threats' and quit. Chased away by Turbine's own bad behaviour. Not a mass exodus yet, of course, but these things tend to start small. And they're not quitting because Turbine are making mistakes - they have always made mistakes. But now there's no faith or tolerance in Turbine's reasons for making the decisions they do. They appear cynical, underhand and manipulative. They are seemingly no longer motivated by anything benign or sincere, as it felt in the past, but purely by avarice.

People neither respect or trust them any more. In short, they have destroyed their public image. They took a company with ravenous brand loyalty and sacrificed it in the pursuit of short-term goals. I seriously doubt that Turbine as an independent company will ultimately survive the damage they have done to their own name. Subsidiaries that screw up as badly as Turbine have done tend to have a short shelf life. They get either closed down or merged into other companies with better reputations that are owned by the same parent. See Mythic for more details.

Wouldn't surprise me if we eventually see the formation of a "Turblind" merger with Snowblind, developers of War in the North. It also wouldn't surprise me if WB were deliberately running the game into the ground and only bought Turbine to get their hands on their LOTR License.

But then I'm a cynic. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They leave the topic so far open because the Turbine defence club does do the dirty work for them yet again.

If Sap the dictator get tired of the thread or too many will complain the lock will surely come.

It will. Especially with the usual suspects out and about swatting away detractors (DarkCntry, Arbalister, Digital Utopia, etc.). They're getting pretty riled up about being overwhelmed and they're throwing out dirty comments, so I'm sure a CM will be along not too long to say the discussion has resorted to personal attacks, it's too heated, etc., locking "for the sake of the community."

These guys know it's just better to wait for the community to bring out the detractors so that the thread can wittle down enough until someone gives in and drops some sort of bomb. That way they can sit back and say, "See, we gave this thread a chance, even though it was negative. It was locked legitimately and not preemptively." Because, as you've said, they know it'll eventually die off the front page and largely be forgotten in a week or two.

Oh, I don't think we're being punished, Agamemnon; we're being "LOTROed." ;)

It doesn't quite have the same ring to 'Flagshipped'. I'm starting to become quite partial to 'Turboned'. It has a dirty theme to it and accurately describes what the company is doing to its customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...